HH BUG GOT ME - Part Two!

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Hermon:
 

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

so for carbons, i use cheap beman bowhunters, 500 spine, 29" long from depth of nock to the end of the insert, with 250 to 350 grains of point and adapter up front for a 510 to 590 grain arrow.  feathers are either 5.25" shield helical 3-fletch or 4.25" banana offset 4-fletch.  they've worked just fine for me. [/b]

What weight bow are you shooting these out of Rob? [/QB]

38# to 53# @ 29" - i pull the back of the head (insert) to the front of the arrow shelf.

[WESTBROOK]

Yup...combine the carbons ability to absorb point weight with the "far from center" shelf of an ASL and you'll think you've fell off the weak side of the spine charts.

TxAg, your quite stiff with those 55/75's

I shoot them, 31" w/300g out of a 58 @ 29 NM Classic

[Centex]

TxAg 400 spine is way too much.  I doesn't make sense to me but only 500s will fly from my hill bows 48-55 lbs.  I currently shoot the 3555s full length standard insert with 175-250 upfront.  Bow hand placement can change alot.  Switching between my toelke whip and hill takes a slight adjustment.  Once you make the mental change I can switch back and forth with out trouble.  Look for a pm.

[Paul_R]

Originally posted by Centex:
TxAg 400 spine is way too much.  I doesn't make sense to me but only 500s will fly from my hill bows 48-55 lbs.  I currently shoot the 3555s full length standard insert with 175-250 upfront.  

That's been my recipe for success with carbons.      

5575's don't fly right for me with much less than about 65# behind 'em.

[two4hooking]

I thought arrows were supposed to be made out of wood  

[MikeNova]

Carbon arrows were wood millions of years ago if I understand correctly. Maybe they should be called fossil arrows. Sounds more traditional.

Carbon dust is very bad for the lungs, so when I got the Alaskans, I had them cut to length. Luckily they were just right for the bow I ordered them for. My experience years back with parallel carbon was not so easy. First, I was shocked how light and stiff they were for my test arrow. After messing around with the bows for a long time I gave up and ordered weight tubes. Still too stiff, so I ordered heavier inserts and steel adapters. Still stiff, so I started over with a full length shaft, better. Then found how much I hate full length shafts sticking out of my back quiver. Then I calcuguessed how many wood arrows that I could have made with that much money and how much time I would have had to make them. I have recently gone to Surewoods, just to be safe from dust inhalation, I had them cut and taper them, one never can tell what is in that doug fir dust, probably doug fir stuff. Anyway, us under 28" draw ASL shooters can be thankful that the properties of wood arrows gives so much tolerance and forgiveness. I know that it has been stated that wood arrows are tough to build and get to shoot right. The real trick is to know your own stats,talk to the folks that sell them, fletch them up and go shoot arrows.
"The Hill style of shooting is quite simple, but it is exacting." - John Schulz
Keeping it simple makes it more fun.

[TxAg]

Maybe I need to go dig up the wooden arrow thread. I don't exactly recall, but it was something like 30 or 40 pages.  Hmmmm

[Rob DiStefano]

woodies are great fun in far too many ways.  

i'll always build 'em and shoot 'em, but they're individually far more unique and overall less consistent, particularly after shooting, than those other shaft materials.  

newbies and those working on form should stick with carbon or aluminum shafted arrows and avoid woodies - one less variable to be of concern.

[ron w]

Nothing shoots like wood........  

I have a bunch of 1918s as well, they fly nice for me, but nothing will change how cold they get when the temps drop below freezing and I hate how they get drops of ice frozen to them. I like to have my woods weigh about the same so the cold weather gear transition is not so much of a shock. With a couple of my bows, they only shoot the tapered graphites.  I find that as long as I do not mix arrows on a given bow, the transition from right hand to left hand is no big deal, my brain remembers how that particular bow shoots. But I am liking these Surewoods so much, I am afraid all of my other arrows will have no use.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by ron w:
Nothing shoots like wood........      

yeah, sometimes erratic at best.     :eek:      :rolleyes:      

but i loves 'em!        

Maybe I am just lucky, but I have had very few out of hundreds of wood arrows either for myself or my friends that did not do what they were suppose to. Of course, I am pretty fussy up front when I buy the shafts and it really helps to have the person right here to shoot for me before I start anything.

[Overspined]

Anyone starting to shoot longbows, stick to wood or aluminum as Pavan said. Having trouble with carbon tuning, or porpoising, or any other crazy 400 gr up front, take a step back to the forgiving and easily tuned arrows of wood or aluminum.  This seems esp true with Hill style bows.  Automatically go down one or two spine weights if you think you'll shoot carbons!  I spine carbons in a tester i use for wood arrows, to say most brands are stiff is an understatement, as they are made for extremely center shot and efficient wheelie bows when labeled.  Throw it on a Hill style and have fun with that.

I am not against carbon, I shoot em a little, but wood is so forgiving, quiet, and even fly straight when bent...and there are a million different choices in shaft material now days available to order. I've seen the enjoyment of shooting come and go with the arrow choice, esp in inexperienced shooters trying to tune carbons.   Keep it simple seems to work.

Then when you are having fun with normal, easily measured alum or wood arrows, start messing around with carbons and  inserts, heavier inserts, even heavier points, nocks too tight on the string, make another string so they fit, turning the nocks, add weights that screw into the back of the inserts, add another insert on the nock, figure out how you will glue your broadheads on another set of head inserts, try and end up with the right grain weight, and don't ever short draw by an inch or it might kick again, realize they are cut too short, add weight tubes which often affect spine...FUN!

[TxAg]

I've had really good experiences with carbon out of center cut bows like Toelke Whips and Centaurs. I know I can get them to work out of these ASLs (i've done a lot of tinkering over the last two days) but I do agree with all the comments....they need a lot of weight up front and a lot of length.  I would definitely prefer wood (i think    ). Not too keen on aluminum, but that's just me.  A few members have been gracious enough to send me different strings and some woodies to try.

I do appreciate all the reaffirming comments.  This is a really fun and informative thread. I like to read hunting and financial  forums....never seen a thread anywhere as cool as this Hill appreciation thread.

One thing I do that helps me, I believe John Schulz may have done something similar when setting up his arrows, I like to just tag my finger lightly with the broadhead. That is something that is quite easy to set up for narrow gauge aluminum and wood arrows. For those that jerk their arrow back hard this is something that can be a bit dangerous, but it is not that difficult to condition yourself to get just a little bit delicate as full draw is reached. That means that I have 3/4" extra arrow between bow and the back of the blade, Grizzlies work well for this. Hills do as well, but I shorten the arrow to match any distance that is different so I can tag with the same pressure.  For some reason having confidence in my draw length helps me to concentrate on game shots better and that little bit of squeeze at the end of the draw seems to finalize the aiming process, even though it is only for a quarter second at times.

[Rob DiStefano]

i can make most any reasonable shaft material work itself into a good flying arrow out of most any stick bow.  

matching a set of 12 woodies will always be hit or miss - they will NEVER EVER be as perfect as those "non-traditional" shaft materials.  it's folly to think otherwise because of the inconsistency limitations of the unique organic medium, which has a mind of its own and is highly susceptible to the environment AND usage.  

back when i built arrows with better than decent wood shafts (can you say "acme" circa the 1950's and 60's?), matching a dozen was a bit better than today because the poc of yesteryear was simply THAT good as compared to ANY of the woods commercially sold today.

however, these dayze i find myself building and shooting woodies far more than carbons.  it's mainly from an aesthetic perspective, but for me it's also a "stability" thing.  big 'n' heavy wood, with big fletching and with far less foc.  like long range big caliber single shot rifles, slow 'n' steady can be a very good thing when flinging 11 to 13 gpp logs at sane shooting distances.    

i see no need to mess with aluminums - they just don't have the durability i can get out of a cheap carbon shafted arrow.  

now, when it comes to working on shooting form, the better precision of carbon or alum arrows makes far better sense than using wood arrows.  i like to know that *I* missed, not the arrow.
 
those archers who just can't seem to get a carbon arrow to fly well are almost always using a shaft that 1 to 3 spines too stiff, even after loading up the front end.  i doubt there's a typical stick bow in the 40# to 55# @ 28" range that can't get a tweaked 500 spine carbon to fly well outta it.

a handsome feller amongst a bunch dullards.          :D    
 

ain't da wood just so purty?    

It is still possible to get wood shafts as good as those old Acmes that I have, but someone has to do some serious picking and sorting to get it done. I went through a pile of RC cedars at a garage sale, I could have my pick for a quarter a piece. I managed to come up with six out of the gross that were identical in weight, spine and quality and another six that were close. I tapered and fletched them up real nice, put broadheads on six of them. Then my son dropped off a hundred 1918s, 60 1818s and a bunch of 1920s, with both screw and glue on inserts. My farmer friend was happy to take those RC arrows off my hands and has shot several deer them.
My biggest challenge with wood arrows is to get them the same weight, for years I was getting extra heavies from Rogue River. They are tougher than an average cedar and shoot nice, but tough to duplicate. As the numbers dwindled down over time I do get some old arrows that do not match my current set up.  They make good pheasant and rabbit arrows, I have a hard time shooting alumnums and graphites at pheasants, with old cedars, I don't give it a second thought.
I just finished up a dozen Acme cedars. The heaviest one is 521 grains and the lightest one is 516 grains, they have really straight grain lines, no flare outs and they needed no straightening. I think that I am keeping them for myself.

[Rob DiStefano]

FACT: wood arrows, for the very most part, can never ever be as consistent as fiberglass, aluminum or carbon/graphite arrows.  it's the nature of the beasts, plain and simple.

all the talk about making a great set of well matched woodies is just fine and dandy.  been there, done that.  with lots of care a reasonably matched set for spine and weight can be created.  howwever, once born, woodies are far more influenced by their environment and the stresses of release and landing than those other non-trad shaft materials, and consistency does suffer.

it's great to love woodies, i do, big time.  i actually build and shoot them now more than i've ever had, and that's going back *over* 60 years.  but to think they're in the same consistency league as alums or carbs is just wishful thinking.  believe, me i have those same wishes, but facts is facts.  there is no "ymmv" applicable here, sorry.

[lbshooter]

I have had no problem with the current availability of excellent hand matched POC shafts from Kustom King.  I have found that they give up little or anything to carbons or aluminum for my purposes.  These shots are typical performance 20,30 and 40(2 right angled arrows) yards with my Miller Split Bamboo. I also use them with my Schafer Silvertip which shoots them perfectly. I have sometimes wondered if it's just my passion for wood arrows that gets them to shoot so well for me.