HH BUG GOT ME - Part Two!

The finish is drying, a bit of leather soon, and then the great adventure of the mailman.

[Learner]

Originally posted by pavan:
..............Of course, you know that "Upon release, with both hands do nothing.", does not mean a sloppy or weak release.........John said once that the shooter needs to have themselves tuned before they start blaming the equipment..............

Thank you, Larry.

That is exactly my finding, with regards to having myself "tuned" first.  I'm not yet at the point where small differences in my setup translate into noticeable differences in the result, since most of the problems relate to me, not the setup.  I am very grateful, though, that at least I can recognize it now, instead of thinking it's the gear.

Come to think of it, maybe that's the hidden meaning behind "it shoots where you point it": if you point it badly, it flies badly!

Also recently I've discovered that I'm more discerning of problems caused by my release versus that caused by poor alignment.  Most of the time it's more my alignment that's the issue.  My release is actually pretty "dead" now. with little or no movement, and little plucking.  When I pluck I immediately know it.

But on the topic of gear tuning: after reading how you do your initial setup, maybe that's why I'm now shooting 50-55" POC with my 45# Big 5, since I cut mine 28.5" BOP with a 27" draw, with 145 gr. points, resulting in a weaker arrow.

Best wishes,
Frank

[Learner]

Originally posted by pavan:
........When people come to me for arrows for a Hill style bow, I set up the bow right in the middle of the makers suggestion range, a wood arrow  with 125 grain heads with 3/4" to an inch of of extra bop and right at the marked poundage, adjusted to draw lengths.  I have not seen once that when the shooters problems were fixed and they were shooting consistent that the arrow chosen did not work good enough......

Excellent tip, Larry.  Thank you.

Frank

[MnFn]

I am still trying to shoot longbows proficiently and some of the comments are reasonating with me.

For you guys that are further along than I, please keep posting, keep this post current.

Thank vou very much, even the simplest things may help someone.

Gary

[Learner]

Originally posted by MnFn:
I am still trying to shoot longbows proficiently and some of the comments are reasonating with me.

For you guys that are further along than I, please keep posting, keep this post current.

Thank vou very much, even the simplest things may help someone.

Gary

Larry (pavan) has been at it a long time.  He is a wealth of information.

Although I've never met any of them in person, the advice that Larry, Greg (two4hooking) and Nate (Sunset Hill bows) have taken the time to share with me, via email and phone, have been most helpful.

It seems that with Hill bows (shooting the method that Howard and John espoused) it's the simple things that matter.  I have found that John's (Schulz's) video is just loaded with nuggets of wisdom.  Basically, everything in that video plays an important part in getting a good shot with an ASL.

For me at least (since I don't have the best "muscle awareness"), learning to shoot the ASL well is a very slow process.  But I am grateful for each little revelation that I discover along this journey.

Two areas where I have deviated from the "orthodoxy" slightly:  First, I nock under, whereas John taught to nock over.  However, I can pull an arrow from my back quiver, align it, nock it, and come to draw without ever looking, with no problem.  I prefer nocking under since if the nock is slightly loose on the string, it won't slide up the string when sitting on the shelf.

Secondly, I have lately found that doing some exercises where I come to full draw and hold, then let down, serves to help train my muscles to "know" when I am properly in alignment.  Then when I shoot the swing draw, I have more confidence and less target panic.  It also helps to build strength in my drawing shoulder lower muscle groups (where the "draw" should originate).

As I have had shared with me, once one starts learning to shoot the ASL, they need to put aside their recurves until they learn the proper ASL form.  I have done so, and have not shot my recurves since I got my Big 5 in January.

Best wishes,
Frank

Concerning your first and second points. I like the old Mercury nocks.  On some strings the nock will slide up the string when I am deer hunting. For those strings I add a small nocking point above the arrow.  When I nock an arrow, I can feel the larger lower nocking point with my thumb and hit arrow between the two very easily, as fast as I can with just one nocking point under the arrow.
Concerning point two, I have only twice in over 50 years of deer hunting have let down a fully drawn arrow.  Some people cannot draw on a target that they are very familiar with, hold and let down, they will release.  Some like to call it TP, I do not, because most of the time these same individuals have no problem accurately shooting large and small game with extreme accuracy and speed.  However, every time I go out, I draw and aim at various tiny objects and let down as my warm up.  I have seen in others and also for time myself, where shooting at the same target at the same ranges can create an automatic response release.  When that begins it is time to mix things up and go stump shooting and when stump shooting, shoot with direct determination, not to hold and let down, but to say, "I am going to shoot that exact spot and with full determinations, shoot."  I like to think about what 'am' going to do when shooting.  Constantly practicing what you are 'not' going to do can get  the shot process confused, as in saying, "I am 'not' going to shoot.  In a few weeks with my new bow, when I see a cottontail or a dove, I am not going look at that at that dove or rabbit and tell myself I am going to draw but not shoot.  I am going to, with full determination, shoot.  
  Good point on sticking with a single bow or at least a single type of bow.  Although, I am prone to switch hands when I find a place to park myself when deer hunting.  I find the option very convenient and my next bow will also have that feature, of course, the back quiver has to come off when I do that.

[Learner]

Thanks, Larry.  Thanks for those tips!

Let me clarify my observations a little:

When I do a hold for a time, I will usually let down; other times I will actually do a delayed release.

That's because instinctively I will (from practicing the swing draw) always release as soon as (or sometimes unintentionally before) I hit anchor.  If releasing too much before, the undesired result is my shot form can start to become compromised, and my aim and trajectory decays.  I'm then left wondering "What am I doing differently?".  All I know is that it is not feeling quite right.

To get it back on track I use the extended hold to remind my muscle memory "this is what it should feel like when everything is lined up and you are ready to release".

I actually never have the problem of "holding" when I should have released immediately.  Quite the opposite!  95% of my practice shots are actually immediate release, no holding. The urge to release is so strong that many times I can't hold, even when I want to!

For me the other benefit of (occasional) holding exercises is not just developing muscle memory, but it is also building that needed muscle strength in the appropriate muscles.  Sort of like weight lifting with slow reps

I play the violin (a little) also.  When my violin bowing gets off track, slowing the stroke down, taking full strokes, and analyzing the feel in the process, serves a similar function.

Best wishes,
Frank

[two4hooking]

That new gloss finish is the cat's meow!

He has been a busy guy, ships next week sometime.

[Learner]

Exciting news...Craig just called me yesterday and told me that my new Half Breed is finished.

He said that it is being shipped today.  He had told me it would be about 7 to 8 weeks, and it was exactly 7 weeks since I finalized the order.

Thank you Craig!

[gatradbow]

For a 5'8 man and 24 inch draw what Hill style bow and brand do you recommend? Thanks

Hello Stephen,

Trad Gang has a great many sponsors that have earned a solid reputation for quality Hill-style bows and those sponsors can guide you through the many options that may apply to your needs and desires.

You will undoubtedly get at least a dozen different recommendations from a dozen different members here....and they will all be right!

Just sit back and absorb what you can...ask questions and get answers.

Good luck on your search!          

Tony

[gatradbow]

Thanks Tony!

Would this be your first Hill style bow?  And if it is, have you watched this yet?  
While there are a number of different available bows, the time line may be consideration or not, some have bows on hand.  You may end up with a 62" or a 64" depending on where your form stabilizes with a longbow.

[Learner]

Originally posted by gatradbow:
For a 5'8 man and 24 inch draw what Hill style bow and brand do you recommend? Thanks

Hello Stephen:

As Tony mentioned, there are many excellent bowyers here who build ASL bows.  There are some I'd eventually like to own.

But my first two I ordered from Howard Hill Archery, owned by Craig Ekins and his family.  Years ago, his father Ted was in business with the legendary Howard Hill, and when Mr. Hill got out of the manufacturing business, Ted was granted the right to keep producing bows based on Howard's designs.  When Ted passed on, Craig inherited the business.  He is the master bowyer there.

Craig will give you good advice and build a bow to  your exact needs.

Something of which you may or may not be aware:  your draw length with a Hill style ASL will generally be an inch to an inch and a half shorter than with a comparable recurve bow.

Something else to keep in mind:  if you have a bow built to a very short draw length, it could take a while to sell it if you ever decide to get rid of it (I've seen this happen in the classifieds of another site).  So you could always have a bow built to a more standard draw (27" or longer"), but at a weight higher than you would want.  So lets say that you'd want a bow to draw 50# @ 24": you could order it as 58# @ 27", which would give you around 50# at your draw length.  Someone then who wanted a 27" draw could then later buy it from you, and be able to safely achieve their draw length of 27" wihout overdrawing it.

Best wishes,
Frank

try again after I read some instructions
 
 

[gatradbow]

That's all very good advice. This would be my first Hill Style Bow. So far I've only shot Recurves and short R/D longbows but I'm always looking to try something new.

[Learner]

Originally posted by pavan:
Let me try this flicky thing.
  https://www.flickr.com/photos/150815646@N03/shares/H687m7  

Larry, the link which you used for this photo does not allow it to be embedded here in your post.  Instead it is only taking us to your flickr gallery.  An embedded photo link must end with a .jpg extension, or something similar.  (Also not certain that a https link will work; it may have to be just http).

Try this: on tbe lower right side of your photo screen on flickr is a lttle right twist arrow.  Click that, and hopefully there is some way to get a proper link for embedded posting into a forum.

Best wishes,
Frank

Okay imgur is way easier than that flicky thing.
 

[Learner]

Originally posted by pavan:
Okay imgur is way easier than that flicky thing.
   

Yes, it is.  

Also, when you embed a photo from Imgur you can choose the BBcode link, which allows direct pasting into a post without the need to use the "image" link button here in tbe forums.

Best wishes,
Frank