HH BUG GOT ME - Part Two!

[far rider]

Well, as far as draw, my consistency isn't the best right now as I'm trying to develope the Schulz swing draw method which is a lot different than the standing push pull....something I was doing. In other words, my form was all over the place. I would say my draw when things are right and I have good back tension is a minimum 29-30. I have had my wife mark an uncut arrow for me when I was at full draw, and it was pretty close to 31". My bow was set up by Craig for 55#@30 1/2". Therefore, I just put a taper on my arrows and install the points.

I feel like when my form settles down, I'll be somewhere between 29 and 30 (probably closer to 30), but probably not over it. I'm a shade over 6'3" and I have orangutan arms.

Unless I absolutely have to do it, I'm trying to avoid carbon or aluminum. Nothing against those who like them, I'm just a wood guy.  

I have some 23/64 75-80s, and also some 11/32 80-85s that I purchased after trying Stu's calculator. That didn't work out so well with my Hills. Would either of these heavy spined arrows work better with the heavy 225gr broads since I last tried the 75-80s with 145gr up front?

I realize I can just go try them, but I'm just trying glean some wisdom from the Gurus on here to avoid buying 10 sets of incredibly expensive arrows to find a starting point.

Rose City offers a test kit starting at 50-70
                                    and 60-80

I'm gathering that the latter would be the best kit to try.

Thanks,

Tim

[Brianlocal3]

Not so much arrow related but kinda...far rider, if you are workig on form, and a whole new style at that, you are chasing your tail a litte trying to pin point good shafting.
I think Shultz and hill both recomend not worrying about arrow impact point or even flight at this point. You are changing alot right now, and if you adapt the bent arm like thy suggest you may very well nock off an inch or more draw.
If you REALLY want to learn the swing and utilize it to its fullest (something I cannot do so I shoot more static) them just focus on the swing draw right now

[RC]

What was Hills arm spread? Whatever we read once, when we measured my son's arm spread it was one half inch less. According to my son that accounts for his one quarter inch shorter draw with the same bent arm. I believe that it was 76 inches. My son is well over 6 feet and he shoots 28 inches. If you could watch how tight he groups arrows at 30 yards, you would want to copy some of that. At this point in your form development, I would not worry about where the arrows are hitting.  However, and this can be a tough one, it is extremely helpful if you have someone watch your arrow flight for you. A wood shaft out of Hill will first bend into the bow on release, then snake around the bow as it passes it. If you have a DVD of Hill shooting watch it super slow stop mode, you catch the arrow bending in. It make perfect that it needs to do that because the bow is not center shot and the string drives the arrow straight into the center of the bow, pushing on the arrow before it get moving. If the arrow is too stiff there is the tendency for the arrow to skate off the bow instead of going around it. Those arrows you already have may be flying just right. there may be other things you can do tuning wise to get better arrow flight. Like raise your knocking point to 3/16 inch above level, nocking under the arrow; give yourself a higher brace; turn you cock feather into the bow; bend your left arm and try for solid follow through at a shorter draw. Then have someon else watch the arrow flight as it comes off the bow. If the arrow did not miss the target and hit your garage, it was a good test.
In any case, I would try to get your form stabilized first, then find what your draw length is in the shooting process, not just drawing the bow and marking an arrow. You can put marks on an arrow of different colors, than have someone watch and tell you which mark you drew to when you shoot. It is possibly different than the static measure that you are getting now.

[Kelly]

far rider;

Nate Steen of Sunset Hill bows is same height as you and his true draw is just a tad over 27". Speaking of which your true draw( the draw length when you are actually concentrating on shooting and not just drawing the bow back to see how for you draw it) may/will be much shorter than you think. Only way to find this is have someone watch you while you are shooting-all you think about is form and shooting. Then after several arrows like 10 or more have that person tell you how much of the arrow is sticking out in front of your bow and that is your true draw.

That said, right now since you are working on the Hill/Schulz form do not pay any attention to your draw for quite some time. Then find some heavy field points to match those broadheads and put them on those 75# spined arrows and shoot them. If they do not work then find soem lighter points for those 60# spine arrows to see if that helps.

I'm guessing that when you find your true draw length and have arrows made according to that you will be somewhere in between those spines.

[M60gunner]

What Kelly says x2. I used to cut my arrows to 29in but now only 28 1/2 as I was told I had to much arrow hanging out.
Far rider, I have had a similar experience this past week end with carbon arrows. Used one of my 500 spine carbon out of my Pete George longbow. I was surprised at how well it flew. My hand and wrist did not like it much.

[Owlmagnet]

While on the subject of arrows, I am currently working my way through 4 dozen raw ash shafts I nearly forgot I had. After 14 months in Arizona's low humidity, needless to say, our local climate has not been kind to them! Simple hand bending was useless. Since I was not inclined to use compression, (I intend to barrel taper these shafts), it was time to break out the heat.

Since I don't own a heatgun--and lack the necessary courage to appropriate my wife's hair drier--I tried to find something other than a propane torch or burning all the hair off my arms over the kitchen stove.  I did.

I have a couple of Alladin kerosene lamps that I use during power outages. I discovered that the tall glass chimney can really focus heat where you need it, rather than trying to heat the whole shaft. I straightened some shafts that I could not, using normal methods, reasonably expect to save. Heat WORKS!! Compared to a normal shaft, get an area of that shaft almost too hot to work with bare hands, and you can suddenly work it like a wet noodle! Bends were pretty easy. Slight kinks were tougher, but to my pleasant surprise, I think I did OK.

I will almost certainly straighten them another time, or two, before I taper them, but I am confident that almost every one of them is going to fly.

My thanks to several Tradgangers,(those who no longer appear on this forum, and those who do), who have taught me, over the years, more than I ever expected to learn about arrow woods and arrow smithing. I am in your debt.

[Rossco7002]

Far Rider,

I would go with the heavier spined arrows you already have and just experiment with point weight til you set up is flying well for you. The 60-65s would likely be way weak if your drawing a true 30+.

As per Brian's comment use what you've got til you settle into your new form as you'll tie yourself in knots working on new arrows and a new shooting style at the same time. That's some very sound advice he's giving and I wish I'd heard it a while back myself! Lol

[far rider]

Okay guy,
I appreciate all of the input on it. Point of interest though, regardless of type of draw (swing vs static or push pull), IF your griping the Hill properly, and drawing to you natural anchor....wouldn't the draw length be the same?  

I do appreciate all of your inputs.

Tim

[Brianlocal3]

Basic assumption is yes.... But my shooting partner draws 30" with a Ferguson type draw and shot sequence ( how I shoot) , but he is trying to adjust this form a touch without over expanding and maintaining a compressed form while keeping a good "T" alignment and his draw is 28" on the dot and still out shooting most.  By compressing and locking and keeping rock solid form his draw has shrunk.

[Overspined]

Originally posted by pavan:
What was Hills arm spread? Whatever we read once, when we measured my son's arm spread it was one half inch less. According to my son that accounts for his one quarter inch shorter draw with the same bent arm. I believe that it was 76 inches. My son is well over 6 feet and he shoots 28 inches. If you could watch how tight he groups arrows at 30 yards, you would want to copy some of that. At this point in your form development, I would not worry about where the arrows are hitting.  However, and this can be a tough one, it is extremely helpful if you have someone watch your arrow flight for you. A wood shaft out of Hill will first bend into the bow on release, then snake around the bow as it passes it. If you have a DVD of Hill shooting watch it super slow stop mode, you catch the arrow bending in. It make perfect that it needs to do that because the bow is not center shot and the string drives the arrow straight into the center of the bow, pushing on the arrow before it get moving. If the arrow is too stiff there is the tendency for the arrow to skate off the bow instead of going around it. Those arrows you already have may be flying just right. there may be other things you can do tuning wise to get better arrow flight. Like raise your knocking point to 3/16 inch above level, nocking under the arrow; give yourself a higher brace; turn you cock feather into the bow; bend your left arm and try for solid follow through at a shorter draw. Then have someon else watch the arrow flight as it comes off the bow. If the arrow did not miss the target and hit your garage, it was a good test.
In any case, I would try to get your form stabilized first, then find what your draw length is in the shooting process, not just drawing the bow and marking an arrow. You can put marks on an arrow of different colors, than have someone watch and tell you which mark you drew to when you shoot. It is possibly different than the static measure that you are getting now.

These are some solid pointers!  I shoot RH & RW cock feather in, nock arrow over nock point, worry about form and not draw length or speed.  You can make adjustments later but consistency is key. Adjust point weight... Nocking under the nock point and too low of a brace height MAY cause erratic flight. My local trad shop owner said 80% of his fixes for people to fix their bad arrow flight is raising the brace height after the string got shot in.  That's it.   A few twists and WOW it's shooting great again!

[Jim Picarelli]

Originally posted by Rossco7002:
Far Rider,

I would go with the heavier spined arrows you already have and just experiment with point weight til you set up is flying well for you. The 60-65s would likely be way weak if your drawing a true 30+.

As per Brian's comment use what you've got til you settle into your new form as you'll tie yourself in knots working on new arrows and a new shooting style at the same time. That's some very sound advice he's giving and I wish I'd heard it a while back myself! Lol

Agreed. The 5575's are more in line spine-wise with the 75-80 woods you have. The big difference is the smaller diameter of the GT's...putting the shaft closer to center. With the right point weight, you could get those 23/64's to tune

[bicster]

Jim,
I am glad you mentioned the diameter of the arrows changing how close to center. I have mentioned this before and never seemed to get anyone to agree with me. I have found this to make a difference to me.

[katman]

HELP, I have been bit by the infamous hill bow bug, just got on James list for a morning star. It has been some 40 years since I had one, guess the disease was dormant for a while.

[David Mitchell]

Hmmmm, seems that this thread has seen several bowyers become the bowyer du jour for a while.  Now James is sure getting lots of press.  Howard Hill was getting lots of action for a while, then it was Dave Johnson, now nobody mentions Dave then Sunset Hills ran hot for a bit.  Does this thing run in cycles? Anybody want to guess who'll be the next hot hand on here?     :confused:

[katman]

Don't give me any ideas David.  I may have been bitten but for now one bow at a time. lol

I am sure they are all very fine bowyers making excellent products. Good for us. Just wanted to try a forward handle and talked with James first.

Can someone list the bowyers making these style bows to help feed this addiction?

[Rossco7002]

I had observed the same thing myself Dave! Lol. I think we're lucky to have so many Hill style bowyers to choose from and when one of them hits critical mass it can seem like they're springing up everywhere.

For me, Dave Miller is The Man and I love a nice, gently used Schulz - no doubt. Having said that, JD Berry's bows look like they embody a number of the characteristics that I like to see in a Hill bow: tiny limb tips, narrow / deep limb cross-section, short riser with a deep grip and gentle dish. I can see the appeal.

If anyone has shot both a Berry and a Miller bow I'd be very interested to hear a comparison....

katman, NO BUTTING IN LINE. I thought about it for a long time and settled on the morning star myself. I have other bows, but I plan on trying to wear that one out.

[far rider]

Mudd is your go to guy for the comparison. He owns both presently...and a good many others as well. I'm sure he'll jump in here shortly.
As far as what gets hot next...I think the wait times are influencing that a lot. Craig at HHA is about 4-6 weeks out right now, and that's the longest I've heard from him. Dave is what...a year? Nate.....two years minimum if he'll put you on the list. I'm not sure what James' wait time is but I think Steve at Northern Mist is about the same as Craig. I would expect him to get hot next.

$.02 worth...I probably owe you change.

Tim

James told me sometime before next deer season, or 4 or 5 months. But with winter taking off like it has and if it doesn't back off, I would dare to add a month to that.