HH BUG GOT ME - Part Two!

I also think that a stronger released shot does not lose as much energy from arrow to bow contact. Years ago, we did not have chronos, we flight shot. I made a sort of manual shooting rig. At first we just pulled the bow back with fingers, then a wilson strap tab, and lastly a mechanical release. We could always outshoot it for distance. At the time we thought it was because of arrow drag on the bow, but I could not rig it to duplicate the give of a bowarm. In hind sight that could have something to do with Louis Armbruster's claim that the bow tests in Longbow shooters digest were wrong. I witnessed myself, how Louis could get a much faster arrow than shoting machine results by shooting the arrows himself. He thought that either they used a chrono that was off or the shots were all soft.  When I brought up the rigid lock on the bow and the arrow drag thing, he thought that could be part of it, but in his opinion longbows still shot faster than the published numbers for longbow shooters that 'shot 'em right'.

[58WINTERS]

This thread is getting back on track. Thanks.
58

[Overspined]

I have seen small differences in arrow velocity just by a few small things.  4 fps by going to a glove with a nylon insert in the fingers vs a soft finger glove of the same make, and pulling through the release instead of a dead release. That picks up a few fps as well. I shoot a bent arm so never compared to a locked arm. Shooting a skinny string FF of your liking picks up 4 fps  as well vs Dacron. When you add it up its a spine grouping or two. I'm not advocating one thing over another, just sharing.

 I'm not dead set on anything anymore. I like a variety of strings and nuances of shooting style. I can say that when I do it "right" (hill style), everything just comes together.  His method of shooting is amazing and I'd love to master it. I am flawed, however.

[Overspined]

Hey Goosenecker (Brian)        . I think the reverse handle bows shoot great.  I don't doubt your results. Compare it to a std hill style of the same limb profile and it's difficult not to gain.  It's adding a couple inches of draw length because the riser pushes that bow and limbs away from you. It's not a big deal, but you should see a definite gain in velocity, noticeable in my opinion. It has never discouraged me from shooting a reverse handle bow.  That's what I hunted with all season this year. I am a huge fan of the longbow.

There are quiet curves, but still they don't match the silence of a longbow.

I always maintain, especially with shooting the Hill style, that a strong shot with a lighter bow is always deadlier than a struggled shot with a heavy bow. With Hill form the shooter is a vibrant dynamic part of the bow as much as the bow is a dynamic part of the shooter. With the light physical weight of the bow makes the weight and action and the weight of the bowarm part of the weight and stability of the bow. A heavy handled recurve is more independent and feels less a part of the shooter. I have a 70" Bear Kodiak Special, one would think that it would have a very similar reaction and feel of a longbow, but the action of the limbs and the bending action separates the bow from the shooter. A true Hill style longbow will always have some forgiveness in draw length variations. We have bows that are high performers, but they gain more speed per inch of increased draw than a Hill style bow. Conversely, they loose more speed per inch of draw than a Hill style bow with a shorter draw. Even though there may be more total speed, I think if a bow shoots a more predictable arrow, one can develop a more consistant killing accuracy when things do not work out to always have the exact same draw length. Even Hill's draw showed some variations in various situations.  Speaking as a didicated bird and bunny hunter, I know that my draw length varies and I need some forgiveness with my draw length. In some circles it is almost a sacrilage, but I would rather shoot at ten bunnies in a day than one deer.

[Ric O'Shay]

What I like about the true Hill style longbow is the fact that if you listen to, that is if you are in tune with the bow, it will tell YOU what you are doing be that either good or bad. I believe it takes a relationship between any archer and the bow they are shooting in order to produce a good shot. A "good shot" to me means that every action that produces a shot is perfectly choreographed and is repeated over and over again with each succeeding shot.
You, the archer has to give the bow what the bow requires. You can't force it to do (perform) the way you want it to.

[Brianlocal3]

Originally posted by Ric O'Shay:
What I like about the true Hill style longbow is the fact that if you listen to, that is if you are in tune with the bow, it will tell YOU what you are doing be that either good or bad. I believe it takes a relationship between any archer and the bow they are shooting in order to produce a good shot. A "good shot" to me means that every action that produces a shot is perfectly choreographed and is repeated over and over again with each succeeding shot.
You, the archer has to give the bow what the bow requires. You can't force it to do (perform) the way you want it to.

No truer words have been spoken..... Great write up Danny

[Gordon Jabben]

I have a Northern Mist Whisper and a Classic of the same weight and core material.  I wish I had a chronograph so I could tell the difference in speed.  I really can't tell just by shooting them.

My son really likes the Whisper, do you feel that you have more natural accuracy with the Whisper or the Classic?  According to him, "I just knew where the arrow was going."  He felt a bit guilty about messing up the fletching of Steve's arrows at Waterloo, but he did not want the people watching to have the impression that he could not pile up the arrows with Steve's bows.  When he tried the Kramer Razorback that I bought for a 16 year old, he fired a tight group and then said, "I cannot believe that I don't own one of these."  Not bragging on his behalf, but he did have a good teacher, if he can tell an obvious difference, there is an obvious difference.

[Gordon Jabben]

Pavan, without any real proof, it just seems to me the Whisper is much easier to shoot accurately.  I have another Whisper on the way or should I say lost in the mail.  When I get it I will probably sell the Classic.  The new Whisper is 5 pounds lighter.

[Overspined]

I happen to own a whisper and classic of the same draw weight.  The Classic is 68" and the whisper 66".  The Classic is quicker.  Again, I don't care, but it is, and I would expect that to be the case. Inherently I believe the whisper is very easy to shoot tight groups, but the classic works out the same for me.   Mistakes are a little more noticeable with the classic. I like them both, but I have a preference for the classic style longbow handle, it just fits me.  That said, I hunted the whisper this year and will be hog hunting with it soon.

[typical2]

Most of the loss in speed with reverse handles comes from the bigger brace height.  I think the difference between the Mist Classic and Whisper brace height is 1.5".  Losing that much of a power stroke has to affect speed.

Reverse handles with same brace as standard handle would of course show little difference.

I need a chronograph to play around with.

[Gordon Jabben]

Typical2, I was thinking the same thing.  I use the same brace height on both.  It would be fun to check on a chronograph.

Without using a chrono, because chrono readings quite often just raises comments about how folks doubt the accuracy of the numbers, I flight shot a Hill Razorback against a standard Hill bow that came close to same weight, just a couple of pounds heavier draw, because they seemed very close. The results were not enough difference to matter, just a couple of yards, as in a two or three yard average. My personal faster tipped bows were faster, but they were also stiffer. Although I did cheat on the brace, I only turned the brace a half inch higher on the Razorback, instead of the inch and a half. Even with an inch deeper brace, I would not think the difference would matter that much.

[Jacquesbonin]

pavan,you are right this"Legend"is really fast, I shot it today,this was my first opportunity to do so. I shot 2020 aluminums with Bear greenies, total arrow weight of 565 grains. It shot right were I was looking,awsome! Ready togo hunting! Thank you very much! Jacques

It sets a rather high perfomance standard. John said that he built 40 deer into that bow. You have 22 deer left.

I shot 27" bop 2018s with 160 Grizzlies and single bevel ground Howard Hills on glue in adapters, or extra heavy for the spine Rogue River cedars 70s @ 27" bop with the 160 broadheads. For bunnies, pheasants and targets I used 60-65 pound net length cedars wtih 160 points. Just kidding about the 40 deer, I cannot remember how many John said. Louis Armbruster said that he only built 3 deer into each bow, so he could sell more bows. He built a few extra into mine.

[Overspined]

I shoot my brace of the reverse handle 1" higher than on the classic style Hill bow.  If I go under 6" on the classic style for a 68" bow, I notice and don't like it as my arrow flight becomes impossible to tune. So I shoot it 6 1/4 to allow for any unexpected changes, like heat or accidentally allowing a few twists to fall out.

Steve at Northern Mist said I shoot the 7 1/4 " brace on the 66" whisper too low, as he watched as I immediately swapped out the strings for a longer one I brought with me. That bow is a T/D so I lower the brace until I hear it's too low, then raise it a little.  7 1/4" is what it came to.

If I had a one piece like Typical 2 said, I'd lower it until it quit shooting for me.  Haven't tried that yet.

Seems about right to me, 1"-2" different in brace.  Reverse handles are probably even more forgiving at a higher brace like 2" higher than a classic Hill. So approx 8".  

As I have said, the local trad shop owner said he fixes most "sudden" and panicked inconsistencies with just twisting up the strings of customer's trad bows. Apparently folks don't keep tabs on that very well.

[Brianlocal3]

Matt,
You bring up a perfect point. I hadn't shot my vixen in a while due to shooting the Morningstar and I noticed my arrow flight was funky a week or so ago, I meant perfectly tuned arrows acting silly, I put a couple twists on the string and viola, perfect flight. I don't measure brace I just eyeball 1/8" higher than fistmele, and that solved it.

Glad you brought that point up

On the above Legend John said to use a max 6" brace height and taking it higher could cost a lot of cast.  If I remember right, I read once that he said it could be as much 20 feet per second for an inch over. My fisty thingy is only 6.5", I have STD, short thumb disease.