HH BUG GOT ME - Part Two!

[Baylee]

B:  Don't know your definition of wide limbed flat bows, but NMs and Hills aren't, IMO.  Yes, J.D.'s bows are about an inch at the fade outs. I have a Vixen and Valor that are, a Taipan that's about 1 1/16 at the fades. Also have a couple of NM Sheltons that are 1 1/8 inch or a tad less at the fades. A couple of Jets I own are close to 1 1/16. I no longer have any Hills, but i don't recall them as being particularly wide either. 

I have seen some ASLs that are 1 1/4 and even a little wider.  I would consider those outside the normal parameters of an ASL, but even then, not of flat bow dimensions, which are in the 1 1/2 to 2-inch widths.

Regardless, I consider all of the bows I mentioned to be quality bows, and given the same design -- straight, backset or string follow-- weight and length, I would be hard pressed to decipher any shooting characteristic differences based on a sixteenth or eight inch limb width difference.

Couple things to help you as you seem confused. The Tiapan is not an ASL.
I specifically said the taper of the limbs is the most important thing not just width. And theres a lot more involved than just grinding a bevel on the belly of a limb. Berrys design and limb timing is the reason it has no thump when shot. Even a much heavier Shelton I had with heavy wood arrows had noticeably more recoil at the shot compared to my Vixen that was a lot lighter in mass and backset. 
That’s the reason most think they need to shoot heavy arrows or a string follow, handshock.
A Northern mist is a pure rectangle wide limbed flat bow. Maybe you are confused about a flat self bow and a glass backed flat bow? Either way if your happy with your NM continue to be so.
If you have a Vixen and you have a Northern Mist  or Hill and you cannot see or feel the difference in shooting then nothing I said pertains to you. I think the rest of the world could easily see and feel the difference and it ain’t just limb width.

The flat rectangle long riser heavy ASL is an easier quicker build, that’s why pretty much all of them look that way now.

[UncasUK]

Baylee,

That is the best description of what a ASL should be that I have ever read.
Congratulations Sir.

[Orion]

I'm not confused.  Been shooting sticks for nearly 70 years. During that time, I've shot countless ASLs of different lengths, weights, builders and models. I'm pretty confident that I can decipher different shooting characteristics when I encounter them.  I mention the Taipan only for reference.  Despite it not being an ASL, it's another of J.D.s bows that sports narrow limbs. 

The tapering toward the belly you're talking about is called trapping (I offer the definition not for your edification, but for some others who might read this).  It creates a trapezoidal cross section to the limb. There certainly isn't agreement among ASL builders and shooters as to whether trapping toward the belly or toward the back is better or even if a trapped limb has any benefit over a rectangular cross section in a glass laminated bow. (Of course, some builders trap limbs after the fact to make/reduce draw weight for a given customer.) I'm not saying J.D. does that.  Trapping is a signature of his bows. 

I find string material and brace height have a lot to do with the thump one feels at the end of the shot.  A dacron string (vs a low stretch string) or a brace height that's too low both increase the thump at the end of the shot.  So will out of time limbs, of course, even how the shooter grips the bow.  There are lots of potential reasons for felt hand shock.  Though my Berrys are gentle in the hand, they're no more gentle than my string follow Northern Mists. By comparison, my Jets have a bit more hand shock.

Howard Hill coined the term ASL -- American semi-longbow.  If memory serves, his definition is on page 93 of Hunting the Hard Way.  I no longer have the book, but to paraphrase, he described the ASL longbow in comparison to the English longbow. By comparison, he described the cross section of the ASL limb as rectangular, as opposed to the D-shape cross section of an English longbow. And in length, he described the ASL semi-long, again in relation to an English longbow which was longer. 

Trapping doesn't define an ASL.  And a limb width that's 1/16 to 1/8 inch wider than the narrower longbows being built doesn't
make it a flat bow.  Lots of reputable ASL builders and shooters out there would concur, I think.

Regardless, you've obviously found a bow you like in JD's bows.  I like them as well.  However, that's no reason to trash other ASLs/builders.  Your experience with hand shock may or may not be representative of "the rest of the world."   

[Baylee]

I'm not confused.  Been shooting sticks for nearly 70 years. During that time, I've shot countless ASLs of different lengths, weights, builders and models. I'm pretty confident that I can decipher different shooting characteristics when I encounter them.  I mention the Taipan only for reference.  Despite it not being an ASL, it's another of J.D.s bows that sports narrow limbs. 

The tapering toward the belly you're talking about is called trapping (I offer the definition not for your edification, but for some others who might read this).  It creates a trapezoidal cross section to the limb. There certainly isn't agreement among ASL builders and shooters as to whether trapping toward the belly or toward the back is better or even if a trapped limb has any benefit over a rectangular cross section in a glass laminated bow. (Of course, some builders trap limbs after the fact to make/reduce draw weight for a given customer.) I'm not saying J.D. does that.  Trapping is a signature of his bows. 

I find string material and brace height have a lot to do with the thump one feels at the end of the shot.  A dacron string (vs a low stretch string) or a brace height that's too low both increase the thump at the end of the shot.  So will out of time limbs, of course, even how the shooter grips the bow.  There are lots of potential reasons for felt hand shock.  Though my Berrys are gentle in the hand, they're no more gentle than my string follow Northern Mists. By comparison, my Jets have a bit more hand shock.

Howard Hill coined the term ASL -- American semi-longbow.  If memory serves, his definition is on page 93 of Hunting the Hard Way.  I no longer have the book, but to paraphrase, he described the ASL longbow in comparison to the English longbow. By comparison, he described the cross section of the ASL limb as rectangular, as opposed to the D-shape cross section of an English longbow. And in length, he described the ASL semi-long, again in relation to an English longbow which was longer. 

Trapping doesn't define an ASL.  And a limb width that's 1/16 to 1/8 inch wider than the narrower longbows being built doesn't
make it a flat bow.  Lots of reputable ASL builders and shooters out there would concur, I think.

Regardless, you've obviously found a bow you like in JD's bows.  I like them as well.  However, that's no reason to trash other ASLs/builders.  Your experience with hand shock may or may not be representative of "the rest of the world."

I’m not saying the trapped limbed ASL is the only true ASL. What I am saying is there is another version that is superior to the long riser wide limbed rectangle limbed bows. I’ve owned over 50 different ASLs by every bower selling them now and several from the past, I’ve shot hundreds.  I’d lump all the rectangular bows in one pile no matter who made them. The Miller concave/convex limb design is another separate category, I’ve owned one and they are great bows, I sold mine.  The last category would be the slimmer trapped limbed thick cored ASLs. All 3 are very different in feel and performance. There are people that prefer each. But the cookie cutter rectangle 1 1/8” - 1/1/4” wide bows with the 15-16” risers so prevalent now are at the very bottom of the pile. I’ve seen them built with shorter risers but retain the rectangle limb, I’ve seen them with 1 1/16” wide limbs but still the long riser and rectangle limbs. I’ve seen them trapped to various degrees still wide still with a long riser. All about the same performance wise.

When I started shooting ASLs I didn’t know there was any difference. Same as my first car. It was a pos but I was as happy to have it as if it been a new Mercedes. Over time years of shooting I have refined my taste in both cars and bows.
If you’ve never shot one of the ones I’m describing you’d probably think what does it matter? I guess it don’t if you don’t know anything else. Like I said if you like your rectangle bows enjoy. I don’t sell bows for a living so what anyone else shoots doesn’t matter to me. I’m just letting people that may not know any better that there is an alternative.And 7” brace heights, 14gpp arrows and skinny strings is an answer to a question better left unanswered lol.  The San Marco would be the first one on the list if I was looking for one.

[Orion]

Actually, I've shot everything you've mentioned, most multiple times.  Yep.  Some have been dogs.  Others haven't.  But it was more the skill of the bowyer rather than the particular bow specifications that resulted in good performing bows vs others that didn't perform as well, and the skinny, trapped ASLs didn't necessarily always come out on top. Different designs lead to different shooting characteristics, tis true. I don't begrudge your preference.  But not everybody likes the same thing, and there's plenty of room for alternatives. 

I see we've taken this conversation about as far as it can be taken  It's been enlightening.     

[Wilderlife]

A few firsts for me over the weekend.

Using an ASL in a competition.
Using wood arrows in a competition.
Shooting in a 3D competition.
Using split finger in a competition.

I finished 3rd out of three people.  Very happy with how I shot sometimes and very annoyed with others, but I'm still very new to the ASL game (and archery in general) so I'm pleased with the weekend and had a heap of fun, which is the main thing. I also know what I was doing wrong so I can look to work on those issues.

Here is a picture for anyone interested. Our clubhouse in the background is brand new and we are looking forward to hosting more shoots in the future.



Bow and arrow setup is SPL Pacific Styk. 51# @ 26.5in. 66in long. 60-65 POC shafts cut to about 27.75in with 125gn points on the front. They weigh about 500gns.

[shick]

Dylan, good for you on all accounts.
Shick

[Tradcat]

Congratulations Dylan !

[katman]

Way to go Dylan, an ASL is just plain fun to shoot.

[A Lex]

Looks good Dylan 

Good fun hey   

Best
Lex

[Old Gray Hill]

Having fun with the bow is what it’s all about! Congrats on your firsts! 

[Yooper-traveler]

Bivouac Union Jack.  This one is a TD.  Dandy shooting little bow.

[Old Gray Hill]

That’s a beauty! 

[Tim Reese]

  very nice!!!

[UglyJoe]

Figure this is the best place to ask this. Does anyone know if Nate Steen is still making bows or leather goods? If so, does anyone have his contact information? I had read he wasn't taking bow orders anymore some time ago, but I don't know if that was a permanent thing or if he was just getting caught up on his backlog at that time. Thanks in advance.

[Orion]

I believe he's still building, but waiting list is very long.  I'm on the waiting list to get on thew waiting list. 

[TxSportsman]

Figure this is the best place to ask this. Does anyone know if Nate Steen is still making bows or leather goods? If so, does anyone have his contact information? I had read he wasn't taking bow orders anymore some time ago, but I don't know if that was a permanent thing or if he was just getting caught up on his backlog at that time. Thanks in advance.

Nate is still building leather goods. As for bows... well I'll let him answer that.

[JJ198]

I have "re-aquired" my 60" Sprague made by Steve in 2020 59# @ 27".  It puts out a very snappy arrow to say the least and since I'm a 3 under shooter no finger pinch for me.  I understand this is not a standard length for him and I bought this when I went to his shop in 2020 out of his inventory and then foolishly sold it and now its made way home.  I've had it back two days and got a pretty good tune 400 carbon, 29", 275g up front.  At this point it will be going to the stand with me in October.

[Tim Reese]

PICS OR DIDNT HAPPEN 

[trad_bowhunter1965]

PICS OR DIDNT HAPPEN 

JJ198 Tim is right it's illegal not posting a photo of you bow