How are 3555 shafts tuning weak w/ 44# bow?

[kirkbow]

Well, I have been bare shaft tuning with some surprising results!
I have a 44# @28" recurve that i'm drawing to 30". The bow weighs in at 48# at my 30" draw. I'm shooting off the shelf w/ a 10 strand FF string, riser cut 1/8" before center.

The GT 3555 shafts i have are full length 30". The fletched shafts have 3- 4" feathers.

I started with 50gr brass inserts and 125gr. field points.  The bare shafts way right, missing the bag! Weak, right?
I am right handed.
I change to 100 gr points and then to 75 gr. points. (still 50gr insert) Each change showing an improvement. The bare shafts are on the bag and closing to the fletched shafts. The bare shafts are still a few inches to the right at about 15 yards so I remove the brass and go with the standard inserts and start with 100 gr points. Still showing weak!

 So now i try the 75 gr. points, getting closer but still showing weak. I built out the riser with a toothpick giving me another 1/16" or so and it is an improvement. The arrows shooting more like darts now, im close but...

 I would reallly like to at least have a 100gr point on the front and now my arrows are weighing really too light. It looks like i have to go 5575, which is fine but am i missing something here? Stu's calculator states that i am right on with 50gr inserts and 100 gr. points.

Could this be right? Could a 48# bow be making these 3555 shafts in to noodles? I have searched here on TradGang and many folks are shooting my weight range and more with anywhere from 100 gr to 175gr up front FULL LENGTH.

 Please help to keep me from having to buy some more shafts if i don't have to. What might i be missing?

Thank you for your help,
Kirk

[Flying Dutchman]

I would say your setup should be fine. I have the same problem wit a new bow, so I will follow this thread carefully.
Strange thing is however, when a friend of mine shoots my setup, the arrows fly dead-center. And his draw length is even one inch more..... When I shoot it, they go to the right. Maybe it is something in the grip or getting to have used to a new bow.... It is the first bow I have which is cut 3/16 past center, maybe I have to make the strikeplate thicker, or maybe I will have to get used to that bow...

[Fanto]

Hi

i shoot a longbow that is 48@28 , i draw 28. its also 1/8 before centre and has a 10 strand FF on it.

i shoot full length 3555s with 135gr up front. they fly great.

the thing with the carbons is that they seem to recover very quickly from paradox and they dont behave exactly like woodies. so you can have a 3555 with 250 gr and shoot it from a 50lb bow and yes it may be 20Lb under but if it flys great then people use them .

Same with stiffer arrows, ive got some 7595s with almost 400gr up front. they should be 10lbs too weak for the bow, yet they bareshaft stiff and fly terribly!

try a 5575 see how it goess.

[AkDan]

likely the 30" draw...bow design and string  playing into it also along with your shooting style.  Most likely if I had to guess its just how you shoot, and that 30" draw.  A 35-55 gt spines at 55lbs.  You're already at 48lbs, factor in another 10 for the 30" draw, another 5 or so for the extra weight up front with the 125 head, string material is still in question, and bow design could up this number even more, actual arrow length could also factor in here if you're leaving things long?

Calculaters are places to start, references if you will, not end all equations to finding the perfect spine. The only end all is actual range time.  

The problem with todays shops is few have/sell/use tuning arrows to get you started BEFORE you buy!!!   A good shop (or online store) should sell you (or let you use if you're at a shop) a batch of test shafts, at the right length in different spines.  Its by and far the fastest way to find the right arrow. A tupperware with some extra heads of different weights and you'll be on in short order.  

 Again calculators dont factor in things like human element, bow design, strings etc.   Too many varibles.  Some potentially get you close.  Some work for a general "bulk" group of people but by and far not everyone!

[Plumber]

I SHOOT A 52 LB BOW 62 inches long,an a 46 lb bow 60 in long. both recurves all mine shoot great with a full shaft,a 50gr insert an a 150 gr tip on a gt 35-55 shaft.I guess its bow design, release,or fourm.some bows like different stuff,let us know what you wind up with

[Plumber]

one other thing STOP BARESHAFTING it will drive  you crazy an you don't really need to do it if it flys good go with it good luck

[Pinecone]

I agree that shooting style plays into this equation. The other thing that you need to realize is that you WANT a slightly  weak bare shaft!  When you fletch up your arrow, you should be dead-on.  Fletching will "stiffen" the arrow, so put some feathers on one of those slightly weak shafts and see what happens.  I suspect you will have an arrow that works well for you.

Claudia

[onewhohasfun]

Agree with AkDan, it' your 30" draw. Just keep building out your side plate temporarily with adhesive backed velcro till you get dialed in. Pinecone has a great point also. Remember to only change ONE variable at a time.

[Pivo]

Not very experienced in this but I have a 48# buffulo that I tried CE150's in and the would bareshaft weak with anything up front. Went to CE250 and 250gr up front. Still had to cut them down to 31.25" to get them right. I draw 30 also. Try CE250's or 5575 and I think it will come together for ya. If you draw 30 and your arrow is 30 your broadheads are gonna be at your knuckles.

[PaLongshank]

sounds like you might need to try bump up to next shaft....5575.  that 30" draw is a monster....good luck.

[AkDan]

Pc, is right bare shafting u want slightly weak.

Bare shafting works regardless what some say.   Lots of ways to skin the cat.   The more tools you're proficient with the easier the end results will come!  Bare shafting is just one of those tools and works.   And you don't need absolute perfect form to get results.   The more consistent the medium the less process's you'll apply to get a result.  It's what we all strive for.....consistency.

[BigJim]

There is something else wrong! First unless I missed it, you are shooting these arrows with feathers and not bareshafting. Second, I hadn't noticed weather you are LH or RH.

When did you get the shafts and have you checked the length? they have been 32"s for the last year and a half. Second, If your bow is cut shy of center...that's how I read it then it negates most if not all the affect that you are getting from the longer draw.

What about shelf wear. Have you noticed that you are getting a wear spot yet? What about noise from the bow, liking maybe a thud or smack noise from arrow making contact as it passes by?

If you can't bareshaft properly, you are missing something.

Things to check:

Start off in the given range of brace height (you shouldn't know what is perfect yet as you have yet to get an arrow to tune properly in order to check for sweet spot.

Make sure that your arrow nocks are not too tight on the string...this can be a big issue! too many guys expect them to snap and lock into place and this is not good.

Increase your nock pt height to ensure that you are at least above ideal and even a little high...start at 5/8" to under side (for split) and 3/4" to under side (for three under).
When you get the arrow spined correctly, you can work your nock pt down a little at a time. When you find the ideal location for it, bump it up a smidge for a fudge factor.

This can be very, very important! Install a second nock pt under your arrow nock leaving a little bit of space so the arrow doesn't get pinched at full draw. This can be an advantage for both split and three under (proven to be so with high speed photography). Tie on nocks can be very helpful since they can be adjusted by twisting.

There are always other variables that can cause minor adjustments for tuning. Most all bows are going to cast very similarly. Don't just assume that what you have is so powerful that it has to have something special (not likely) and skinny strings have little affect.

Another distinct possibility is that your limbs may be pulling to one side or the other. Most guys can't tell...or they don't want to admit it when I point it out to them.
Say for instance, one or both limbs pull a little to the shelf side, then that bow will act as though it is cut more too or past center and the opposite if they pull the other way.

And last but not least (maybe as important as any of the above) is your personal form. Now I have  no idea what you are doing right or wrong, but I am surprised at how many people are adamant about how they don't do this or that (myself included) until someone proves it to them.
When I ask someone to watch my draw for arrow length, I draw 32" +, but if someone tells me without me asking (I am shooting without concern of my draw) I only draw about 31- 31.5"s.

Way too many things to take into account here. If anything, I would say you are right on with the 3555's but I can only assume without knowing more.

Best of luck, BigJim

[Bud B.]

And you can try 5" feathers instead of 4"

[reddogge]

They are too weak for me out of a 47# Wes Wallace with 30" arrows, std inserts and 125 gtr points. Had to go with 5575s and 145 gr points to fly well and weigh right.

[kat]

Originally posted by Bud B.:
And you can try 5" feathers instead of 4"

And maybe a 16 strand B50 string.

[Biathlonman]

My draw is an inch less then yours and I've never been able to get a 500 spine arrow to tune in anything down to #46.  Well at least not with an arrow that was at least 9 gpp.  Swap the 500s for 400s and move on.  Your bow is telling you everything you need to hear, I'd listen to it before us internet experts.

[Easykeeper]

I would listen to what your bare shafts tell you.

I use 31" .340s with a 250 grain point out of my 50#@29" recurve so I'm not surprised that you need a .400 for your 48# bow (if I remember correctly a 3555 is a .500, 5575 is .400).

[WildmanSC]

I'm shooting VAP 350s, .350 spine, out of my Morrison Cheyenne with Max 1 carbon/foam core limbs, 45#@28".  When I have the proper anchor, form and release, they fly like darts to where I'm looking.  When anchor, form and/or release aren't what they should be, I get an indication of weak spine with fliers to the right side of the target.

Bill

PS It's not the arrows, it's Bill!

[kirkbow]

Wow! Thanks for all the informative replies!

I am RIGHT handed.
When bareshaft tuning i am comparing identical arrows except three with fletchings and three or more without.

It most certainly could be my form. I have a low anchor under my jaw bone. It is just where i settled. I have studied Terry's form clock.

I do understand Stu's calculator is just a starting point but I am so surprised that my tune is so different. On second thought maybe 90-100gr difference on the point is not that much.   :rolleyes:  

I guess at some point i need to stop bareshafting as i understand the bare shafts need to show slightly weak. But what is slightly weak? At 16-17 yards i have 8" between my fletched group and the bare group. I thought they should be closer.

I most definately change one thing at a time. How else could i make sense of this!        It's what TradGang is all about.

Kirk

[kirkbow]

Biathalonman and Easykeeper:

Thanks- i will listen. I'm just making sure.  

Wlidman Bill:
That is some very useful bit of experience. I will be sure to scrutinize my form.

Alas the great question - when is it the arrow shaft is weak and when is it my form? Ha Ha

Kirk