Another tuning frustration thread

[haweskg]

Hello All,
Been doing and have done a lot of reading on this site trying to help me sort through my tuning exercise/problems.  Thought I could get there on my own but lately things aren't making much sense and I thought that more knowledgeable folks here could help.

Details: Robertson primal styk 51# at 28.5", my draw is 29", split finger, 6.75" BH, .25" cut before center(includes strike plate), right hand.

So before season started I started bare shaft testing with some MFX 400's, 500's and some axis traditional 400's and 500's.  Shooting 4 shafts of each with the same 75gr insert and 145gr point showed that the 400's were too stiff(nock left).  Based on what I've read here this was no surprise and since some of the 400's had been cut to 29.5" the were way too stiff.  Attempts to weaken the shorter arrows with heaver tips did not work as did attempts to weaken full length arrows with even heaver inserts (100gr).  Super heavy 400's dropped like a rock.  So 500's must be the answer, right?  Well the 500's were showing stiff as well!

Next batch of testing: the 4 full length axis traditional 500's from the previous testing but with 175gr points. Great, they show slightly weak and nock up.  But these are longer than I wanted, so I trim 4 more by .5" and proceed to shoot these two groups of arrows many times.  The shorter arrows showed stiff so I decided to fletch 3 from each group and test via the grouping method.  The longer arrows were grouping together with the bare shaft and the shorter ones were not.  Ok I'm done right?

Season starts but I still practice every night with the one bare shaft included.  Then I notice that my bare shaft starts to show stiff and way nock up.  I decide that my target(block) is getting worn and giving false readings, so I rotate to a clean side and the same thing happens.  I decide not to change anything with the arrows as the season has started but it was really bugging me.  Must be my form, elbow high...nope, release...nope, grip....nope, bare shaft shows stiff and nock up.  What the heck is going on here???  Something keeps telling me based on all of the reading that my arrows might still be stiff and I really don't like all of that arrow sticking out so I decide to see what 600's would show.

So I put together a full length axis traditional 600 with 50gr insert and 175gr point.  Shows stiff....now I'm getting really frustrated so I go get a full length 500 and 400 with 75r inserts and 175gr points and shoot them all together...all nock left and nock high but all within an inch of each other and sticking into the target at the same angles....what is going on here....I'm almost feel like switching to wood...HELP!!!

haweskg

[gringol]

Nock left for a rh shooter indicates weak spine...

[JamesKerr]

That's what I was thinking nock left indicates a weak spine unless you're left handed which you didn't say. I am having the opposite problem though in that all my arrows are showing stiff. So I'll be watching this thread.

[rraming]

It says above he is right handed, you just got yourself confused.
Bareshaft, nock right is stiff
                  Nock left is weak

When you are "newer" write this stuff down, by my archery gear, years ago I wrote nock right = stiff on the wall! still there, no reason to remove it!
Print pages from the web etc.. Creat your own library if you have to. Takes a while for stuff to sink in sometimes

The 400's should work and give you decent weight with 200-225 up front. The 500's will be really light for your set up, in my opinion.

[JamesKerr]

Sorry I didn't see where you said you were right handed. My mistake nock right is stiff nock left is weak. I would think you should try a 30ish inch 400 spine shaft with 175-250 grains up front.

[moebow]

GOT to ask!  How long have you been shooting the Robertson????  Your answer COULD have a LOT to do with your tuning problems.

Arne

[McDave]

Originally posted by JamesKerr:
Sorry I didn't see where you said you were right handed. My mistake nock left is stiff nock right is weak. I would think you should try a 30ish inch 400 spine shaft with 175-250 grains up front.

I think you just made a typo, because you said it right the first time:  nock left is weak, nock right is stiff.

I would try raising your brace height to  7 1/4".  6 3/4" seems a little low to me for a Primal Styk.

[rraming]

Originally posted by McDave:
 

Originally posted by JamesKerr:
Sorry I didn't see where you said you were right handed. My mistake nock left is stiff nock right is weak. I would think you should try a 30ish inch 400 spine shaft with 175-250 grains up front.

I think you just made a typo, because you said it right the first time:  nock left is weak, nock right is stiff.

I would try raising your brace height to  7 1/4".  6 3/4" seems a little low to me for a Primal Styk. [/b]

Crazy Right -Write it down people-ha!

[JamesKerr]

Ah! freakin typo and temporary lapse of brain function. Sorry!

[haweskg]

Thanks for all of the replies!

Ok, that explains a lot.....
I think that I was mixing up bare shaft grouping to the left with nock left.

However, group testing did show the 400 bare shafts grouping to the left of fletched, which indicates stiff, right?  So why do those shafts still lean nock Left?

Been shooting instinctive all of my life(I am 50 years young), but with a recurve.  Been shooting the Robertson for about 2 months now and I know full well that it is a lot different.  However, I have been shooting a lot of groups/arrows to weed out the form mistakes and only when I see a consistent indication do I make a change.

I would have thought that the last test that I did with the 600, 500 and the 400 spine would have showed the 600 nock right???

I must be doing something wrong.....Part of me says just shoot and the rest will follow but I have to be in the ballpark right?

When I was a kid I shot all kinds of different arrows, well two, wood and aluminum and even though some were not the correct spine, they somehow managed to hit the stump I was looking at.

haweskg

[Biathlonman]

Don't know.  Maybe time for a new string?  Maybe try a different diameter shaft and see what happens?  Have you tried paper tuning?  Bare shafting never worked very well for me.  What's arrow flight look like with the fletched shafts?

[Bladepeek]

It can get frustrating. I have some arrows very well tuned to my bows - some 1716s tuned up for my 33# longbow and some 3555s that shoot well out of all my mid-40# r/d longbows and recurves. I can shoot 2 or 3 bareshafts along with the same arrows fletched and when I'm shooting well, all will be in a tight group and the bare shaft is as likely to be in the center of the group as not.

Tonight I was putting a frustrating number of arrows high and right (I'm shooting lefty). I'd stick one dead center in the spot and slip 2 or 3 high and right. Bad release? Torquing the bow or string? Probably guilty of all of these.

It sure is aggravating, though, when I know I can do better. I put the bow away and just worked on my form with a string bow (or rope bow?) until I had a perfect release coming every time and then quit for the day.

[AkDan]

try this....  

barring your braceheight and or nock point didn't move......

get close to the target, bare shaft and heel like a mad man.  Make NO changes other than really lay your heel down on the grip and push hard.  

Now shoot more like a recurve straight wrist style...again this is just a test, NOT a fix!

what you SHOULD see....is that up and down is going to change and depending on the bow and how much heel you can get into or out of it, it could change considerably!   By heeling or not heeling more or less per shot you are changing the tiller of the bow...not really the tiller as that is a static figure, you're changing the dynamic tiller.

Its the same if you change something on the string hand....heavy top finger and no bottom...or more bottom and no top.  It will effect the up and down of the shaft.  

I cant tell you spine and carbons, personally I don't shoot them and wont!  I have tinkered with GT 55-75's a bit mostly because they were basically given me to destroy and that's exactly what I did LOL!  

 I think the bow hand or string hand is the culprit for your new up and down issues on bareshafts!  It may fix your left and rights also (torque?)  

If my bow is tuned and magically one day its not tuned....I know I'm doing something goofy.  We videoed above me years ago and noticed at full draw I was torqueing enough the arrow was visible bent at full draw.

[haweskg]

Maybe I have mixed everything up......

Part of my confusion might have come from a you tube video from a guy named greyarcher who was demonstrating bare shaft tuning and was clearly showing nock left with a full length shaft and then proceeded to shorten it  until he got nock right.

When I thought that I had everything tuned I put 4 arrows in a 1 inch group at 15 yards.  That was with the full length 500's with 75gr insert and 175gr point.

I guess that I will have to start all over!

haweskg

[haweskg]

AkDan,

I hear you and that is the first thing I thought, I must be doing something wrong/different.
I will try as you suggest.  

Since getting the bow I have experimented with all of the variables that affect flight.  Indeed the bow hand as I discovered was a big impact.  Too much heel/hand rotation resulted in bow torque and constant to the left impacts.

haweskg

[AkDan]

he's right nock left is weak nock right is stiff assuming you're righty.

if the FL 500s shoot well why not just shoot them and leave it alone?

ps...wood is even worse!  AND its easier....

For starters you NEED a spine tester.  Without one you're making an assumption that what you're buying is what it is...once you own a spinetester (or use one), you'll realize that is not the case.  Within one company and from company to company.   This makes consistency harder to achieve. on top of it being a natural material theirs a few other issues with wood you don't have with alum/carbons.

The nice part is...they ARE easier to adjust if you have the tools to do it.  Again more spending to get started!!!  some form of cut off tool a simple dremel works well, I built a wanna be dremel cut off saw holder for my dremel that's worked well...and some way to taper shafts consistently every time works great but that means you need table saws drill presses etc lol.  

With wood in order to increase head weight means you may have to switch from your favorite bh to something else....with carbons you can add weighted inserts and keep your heads the same....simple tradeoffs that need to be taken into consideration.

Wood is also not cheap.  Even shafts at 40 a dozen for doug fir minus shipping is steep IMHO!  They're great shafts mind you..but blasphemy its a dowel.  Than your time, plus feathers, points, paint etc...they'll cost you as much as your carbons or more.  Ah the joys of wood.   Good stuff, I'll likely never change!  But they have their downfalls!

[haweskg]

AkDan,

I am damn close to doing just that!
It's just that the extra arrow length was bugging me and I thought that I could get there with a shorter 600.

Thanks,
haweskg

[AkDan]

I don't know the the mfx's so I cant and wont even try to help ya their.   The bale will tell you what you need to know.  Try a lighter head and get rid of the insert on the stiffer shafts and see what you get for left or right.  I still think the up and down is shooter not arrow induced if it wasn't their to begin with.

Again I'd look at what you changed, something happened IF you were on and now you're not..the arrows didn't loose or gain spine, believe it or not I had a customer tell me this once and had to prove it to him via a spine tester, no joke!

[Richard in OK]

OL Adcock's essay on bare shaft tuning says to ignore nock left/right and pay attention to where the bare shafts land in relation to the fletched shafts. Check out his explanation of how to do this.

Richard

[McDave]

OTOH, Ken Beck's method is to tune by paying attention to nock direction, so you pays your money and you takes your choice.