3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: Cracking Gasket Lacquer  (Read 643 times)

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2013, 06:04:00 AM »
grey its made for the pencil industry!  

There was at one time two different distrib going to stickbow shops.  I'm assuming many of those still selling it are using the same brand we were.

Green

holy crap man thats a lot of different sealers. lol!!!!!!

let me ask, if you sealed the shaft with GL, than capped/crested, than overcoated with wb...first whats the NEED for profin to begin with and 2nd if you insisted on using it, whats the need for it over the cap/crest area if you're sealing it with paint and than sealing it again with water based....?!?!?!  

I've also used the finish Lbr mentioned and loved it, it is SLOW to dry atleast up here but it is by far and away the best finish you'll ever try.  I hate fletch tape though so I've moved away from the finish.  

profin is also a slow cure finish.   A way around either of them is a drying box.  Think fly rods, you'll see what I'm talking about very quickly.  Its not much different than a verticle bow hot box.  Something you can control the heat and humidity.

I've found that being I'm not building to sell...i dont really mind if theres a hair in the finish.   My arrows even with as little as  I shoot anymore dont last long enough to worry about it.  if I find something I cant live with, I'll take a razor and cut it off.  A dab of profin or waterbased anything with a similar 'sheen' will make the booger invisible.   I do filter my profin and poor it back into the can when I'm done MOST of the time lol.  

Seal the shaft up to the cap mark with profin however many coats you want.  Dip your cap, let cure, crest...than if you want an over coat (or need one to get a consistent sheen on your arrows, use some waterbased), and your done.

Offline Green

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2013, 06:48:00 AM »
Dan - I was using the water based to seal the crest to keep the metallic's from running.  The minwax polycrilic finish was too soft on its' own, and would get some "shelf wear" after about 75 shots or so.  The hard finish of profin isn't effected by a little friction.  It would target burn on the point end though, which is why I went to GL in the first place.  

My problem down here is two fold....heat/bugs.  When I was building youth arrows, I would leave my garage closed up all night, with a bug light on, then dip around 2-3am when it was coolest and I'd killed the bugs.  A hair or a bit of dust?  No problem.  30 skeeters, etc. on a shaft?  Problem.  Lol.  

I was doing enough at the time that profin was being dipped in several times daily, with new product added appropriately.  Now that I only do my own arrows and occasionally some for friends, my PF is congealing not only in dip tubes, but in the cans as temps get well over 100 during the summer for long periods of time.  Lots of waste so I went to buying quarts instead of gallons.

I'm going to play with the water based Heavy Duty High Gloss stuff and see what I can achieve.
ASL's, Selfbows, and Wood Arra's
Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Offline neuse

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 225
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2013, 07:43:00 AM »
What is the epoxy finish?

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2013, 08:43:00 AM »
Green, go to the epoxy!

Take a baby food jar.  I think its one ounce of epoxy (devcon two ton in the two small metalic containers, not the twin big pliastic kind you push out at the same time).   fill the rest with acetone.  

You can buy it in larger quantities but the smaller 1 ounce package makes mixing easy!  

Mix it good.

Take some tshirts, thin rags or what have you...they dont need to be big at all, cut into patch sized pieces (black powder sized patches).  Dunk in and wipe one half wipe the other half hang leave it alone!  You may be able to depending on your fingers and patch get all the way around the shaft, or you may not.   I was told to do it in halves.  Dont go over the shaft again until its dry.  The aceton evaporates fast and the shaft will be tacky for awhile until the epoxy cooks off.  

Its going to take a number of coats before you really see it, but it is one helluva finish!

Also ZERO target burn!!!   NOTHING NODDA ZILCH!

profin is terrible for target burning! But I do like the stuff.  The finish over bare wood whether cedar or doug fir is really nice without stain.   It will yellow over light colored caps/crests.

Have you thought about a fridge for the summers Green?   I hear ya on the crest from running.  

You can overcoat with the epoxy but you'll want a waterbased coat (or two) over it to keep the epoxy from burning the gold/silver bands also.   Gloss is your harder finishes.   I only go over my crests because my cap finish is dull compared to the profin and have no real issues with cresting burning on the bow.  With epoxy you'll have none.

I typically  let it dry for 12 hours per coat.  Your temps and humidity is going to vary the drying time.   A heat box with some lights really shines with this finish.   I used a buddy heater to help heat the room up.  

use duco for the nocks...tape for the feathers.

Offline LBR

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 4221
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2013, 08:43:00 AM »
Tom Kiessling's process for making wooden arrows using the epoxy/acetone finish.


1) First thing I do is stain shafts. I usually use aniline dyes from
 Gray Ghost Archery, but any stain will usually work. I only stain
 to where the stain and crown will meet.

2) After stain dries, using 0000 steelwool to remove any raised grain,
 then stain again if necessary to achieve desired color.

3) If I don't have any epoxy formula made up, I use the following
 procedure for that.

 *I purchase Devcon 2-ton epoxy and a can of acetone from Wal-Mart
 in the paint section. I use a 4 ounce jar (baby food or mason
 jelly jar) to squirt the entire contents of epoxy in to. I then
 completely mix the 2 epoxy parts until clear. I then add 1 ounce
 of acetone (1/2 jar) and stir until the epoxy appears to have
 dissolved and looks only like acetone remains. I then fill the
 jar with acetone and stir again for a few seconds.*

4) Applied one coat of epoxy as described next.

 *Always wear chemical resistant gloves, I use the blue Nitrate cloves
 that the tools trucks (Snap-On, Mac) sell to local automotive and
 diesel garage mechanics. I use small cotton rags from t-shirts.
 Hold arrow at nock or point end, make one long continuous swipe
 from end to end. Then rotate shaft 180 degrees and do again. (Do
 not attempt to double wipe on same side, the rag will stick to
 the first coat).

5) After epoxy dries, check for raised grain. Remove if needed.

6) Apply a second coat of epoxy.

7) I will mark the shafts for my crown. I use 2 inch masking tape
 at the crown line. I then spray the crowns on, (I usually use Krylon
 enamels, and usually 2 coats will be enough). **If you are going to
 use fluorescent colors, always spray a basecoat of white first.**

8) After crown dries, apply cresting lines (Testors model paints work great).

9) After crown and cresting are COMPLETELY dry, spray or brush the
 crown and crestings with a thin coat of Min Wax Water Based
 Polyacyrlic (blue can). I prefer to brush mine on while shaft is in my
 crester. (I use an Arrow Specialties crester).

10) After poly dries, apply second coat.

11) After letting poly dry an hour, apply first coat of epoxy over
 entire shaft. Make sure to check wiping rag for paint residue
 after first arrow to insure that acetone is not attacking cresting
 and crown. If paint is being attacked, crest the arrow if
 needed, and give another coat of poly over all arrows. Some
 paint will show up from the nock end where there wasn't any epoxy.

12) If all is ok, I will usually put on 5 to 7 coats of epoxy,
 make sure to smooth out finish very lightly with 0000 steel wool
 between all coats.

13) I then set nocks using Duco cement, and mount feathers with either
 Bohning Fletch Tape or regular super glues (not the gel stuff).
 I prefer the tape. This makes for easy feather repair if needed.
 Make sure to remove any excess epoxy from the nock taper first,
 the cement will stick better. I do this with the small blade of my
 pocket knife.

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2013, 08:44:00 AM »
straight from the man!  I need to save Toms Recipe Chad!   Easier to post it than try and explain it LOL!

Hey emailed you btw on here....

Offline Green

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2013, 09:38:00 AM »
Thanks guys.  I have given the epoxy a couple of tries in the recent past.  Once mixed, it's shelf life is only about 3 days.....turning yellow as it ages and cures in the jar.  I also had very long drying times in our heat.....several days as a matter of fact.  In a perfect world, I'm looking for a finish I can use as a dip rather than a wipe on.
ASL's, Selfbows, and Wood Arra's
Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2013, 09:51:00 AM »
sounds like a humidity issue?   it shouldn't take days.

Offline LBR

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 4221
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2013, 09:54:00 AM »
Never had a problem with it curing in 3 days.  Be sure you get the "2 Ton", not "5 Minute".  

First coat dries almost instantly, second coat pretty quick, but after that I normally let them sit overnight before applying the next coat.

The shelf life isn't indefinate--fairly short compared to most--but it's more than a few days.  I've only used the Devcon 2-Ton.  A different epoxy might be totally different.  I think one batch will do about 3 dozen arrows.  Even if you only do one dozen and throw the remainder away, it's cheap.

Durability is unmatched by anything else I've seen or used.

Offline LBR

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 4221
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2013, 09:56:00 AM »
Humidity is stupid high here, and in TN where Tom lives.  My guess is the wrong epoxy or bad epoxy.

Offline Don Stokes

  • Tradbowhunter
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *
  • Posts: 2607
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2013, 11:24:00 AM »
Gasket lacquer should be thinned with acetone periodically, because it evaporates over time. When the GL gets too thick, it cracks in use. Thin with acetone and you won't have the problem. Better too thin and multiple coats than too thick. I have some that is over 10 years old and still working fine.

There is no such thing as waterproof where wood is concerned. Gasket lacquer is good.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Ben Franklin

Offline Grey Taylor

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1546
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2013, 12:27:00 PM »
Don, do you have any data for how thin the finish should be?
For instance, what the viscosity should look like or the mil thickness on a coated shaft?
I know detailed data like that is a lot to ask for but I thought I'd try.

Chad, thank you very much for posting the epoxy recipe and procedure here. Even if I don't end up using it it's good info to have up for other folks to see.

Thanks,  Guy
Tie two birds together; though they have four wings, they can not fly.
The Blind Master

Offline Green

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2013, 04:54:00 PM »
Chad yes, I used the two ton.  Not sure why it was tacky for over 72 hours, but it was, and during the time collected lots of gnats, etc.  

Don - you and I spoke quite awhile back re the gasket lacquer.  I add "some" Acetone to my GL quite frequently, but maybe not nearly enough.  I will add some more Acetone to the tube and test.  I've got nothing to lose at this point really.
ASL's, Selfbows, and Wood Arra's
Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Offline LBR

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 4221
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2013, 05:08:00 PM »
I tried adding acetone to my GL--didn't work.  We found an arrow in Tom's yard that had been lost in snow...I think 2 years or more prior.  Nock and feathers rotted off, point rusted off, shaft looked as good as the day he finished it.

That's a mystery to me Green--never had anything like that happen to me.  Never heard Tom speak of it, and although he doesn't make arrows commercially he's done hundreds of dozens.  Maybe a bad batch of epoxy?

Offline Green

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2013, 07:41:00 PM »
Could have been Chad.  

I ended up removing about 1.5" of GL from my dip tube and replacing it with Acetone.  Spent about 15 minutes working it into the GL with a shaft/gasket.  I'll know in a few days if this has resolved my issue or not.  Temps are cooler here and I may just need to follow Tom's suggestion a little more religiously.  

Anyone else testing the Acetone thinning please let us know your results.
ASL's, Selfbows, and Wood Arra's
Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Offline Grey Taylor

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1546
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2013, 09:41:00 PM »
I'm a little leery of adding too much acetone to the gasket lacquer.
Not too long ago I added about 1/2" to 3/4" of acetone to the dip tube and mixed it in real well.
The next set of arrows I dipped had the crown and cresting melted and wiped off in the gasket. I said words I didn't even know I knew.

Guy
Tie two birds together; though they have four wings, they can not fly.
The Blind Master

Online Kelly

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2013, 11:20:00 PM »
I completely agree with Don Stokes.

Used GL for over 20 years on a production basis. Only cracked finish I had were from arrows left out in the weather for a period of time-it is not waterproof.

Thin with acetone to a water consistency. Pour you GL out of the tube into a can-then add the acetone to thin to desired consistency.

With "water like consistency which is what I used I would put on 6-7 coats with steel wooling between every 2-3.

If you are not using the GL to make any more arrows for several weeks or longer pour the excess out of your tube and store in a can. In the plastic dip tube the solvent will evaporate through the plastic making the GL thicker.

Rougher finish just wears out the gasket faster. I preferred the red ones-are they still available today?

GL is a thicker viscosity version of nitrocelleous lacquer. Sometimes I used ordinary nitrocelleous lacquer as a thinner.

Remember like all other wood finish applications multiple thin coats are much better than 1-2 thick ones.

I used alcohol based stains underneath=for crowns used colored acohol based stains. White shoe polish makes a great white stain for crown.

Remember anything water soluable is also de-natured alcohol soluable like rit dye.
>>>>============>

Enjoy the flight of an arrow amongst Mother Nature's Glory!

Once one opens the mind to the plausible, the unbelievable becomes possible!

>>>>============>

Yours for better bowhunting, Kelly

Offline Green

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2013, 06:46:00 AM »
Don and Kelly....thanks for the help.  Once thinned, things seemed to be returning to normal.

Guy - I don't use GL over top of the cresting so I'm not having the same issues as you.  I use poly over the cresting.  Water based first, then oil based for a final.
ASL's, Selfbows, and Wood Arra's
Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Offline FunFletcher

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2013, 05:45:00 PM »
I have been using EM9300 water based clear polycarbonate. It's exterior rated, as waterproof as any oil finish and alot tougher. I'd say it rivals a good epoxy finish. I thin it a bit with water and dip the same as the regular polyurethanes waterborne. This isn't miniwax though, it is far tougher.

   http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/exterior-top-coats/em9300-exterior-clear-polycarbonate-urethane.html

Offline Green

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Cracking Gasket Lacquer
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2013, 06:49:00 PM »
Thanks FF, this sounds like a very good product, and it's discounted a bit too.
ASL's, Selfbows, and Wood Arra's
Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©