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Author Topic: Three Under Noise  (Read 875 times)

Offline bucksakemmer

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Three Under Noise
« on: October 20, 2013, 12:11:00 PM »
I shoot three under and have been trying to get the noise down on my Shrew Classic Hunter..
I have tried brace height...nock height.... and arrow spine.. I have even gone from off the shelf with Velcro to a feather rest...
the specks are its tillered even...50# at 30 inch's....I've tried 500, 400, 340 and 300. point weight from 100 grains to 275...
Anyone out their that can help

Offline adamgti

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 01:04:00 PM »
I struggled with the enjoying the awesome accuracy and what it gouge was an advantage for a long time with three under. I switched a few weeks ago to split when a bowyer delivered a bow with a nock point installed low. I tried split finger again and can't believe how quite the bow is. Every arrow hits exactly where I'm looking too! I'm sorry I don't have any help with the noise I too struggled with the noise of bows when shooting 3 under, but never found a pluton until I switched to split.

Regards,
Adam
Quartermoon 62" r/d longbow 53# @ 29"

Offline Bjorn

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 01:08:00 PM »
Shrews are not known as a noisy bow. That said 3 under will always make a tiny bit more noise regardless of tiller. Have you tried a different string material-perhaps fewer strands? Maybe ask Ron Leclair for some help?

Offline longbow565

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 01:18:00 PM »
I put an endless loop on mine and it helped quite a bit
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Offline Paul_R

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 01:24:00 PM »
I had a bow that I had to go about 1" over recommended brace height to get it quiet.

I've had great results with SBD strings with either cat whiskers or beaver balls.

But nothing compares to ditching the gloves and tabs and going from 3 under to 2 under and not just from a noise perspective. That dang ring finger is a real trouble maker.

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Offline bucksakemmer

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 01:36:00 PM »
I'm shooting a SBD 8 strand now, maybe I should try a B50...I shot it a few time split and it makes a huge difference...sure do like the soft thump of split finder ... the only plus is I'm trying a feather rest from Trap...very nice...
I could do like RC says.. "just aim low and let'um drop into it"

Offline Kevin Dill

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 01:46:00 PM »
I'd just like to know...once and for all...what causes the noise. I'm theorizing it's uneven string travel in relationship to the limbs...and originates in the string alone.

Offline olddogrib

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 02:30:00 PM »
Kevin,
Me too. There's been a couple posts on this topic lately and it appears that alot of 3-under shooters (myself included) inadvertently load the bottom limb more (relative to the upper)with too much draw on the ring (3rd) finger. Then you've got mis-timed limbs firing.  I've had some success tinkering with a deep hook on the index and middle fingers and backing the ring finger off to the pad. Some tape the first joint of the ring finger. It still isn't split quiet, but a side benefit for me has been noticeably better arrow flight.  I've always had a slight tail left kick (I'm RH)of a bare shaft leaving the bow and it's gone now that I've taken that third finger out of play.  Guess I was plucking or drawing the string outside the plane of optimum travel or something.  But like you said, it would seem that a simple solution is merely to go from even tiller to positive on the lower limb. Several bowyers confirm that they will do this on request. I guess not everybody has a ring finger that misbehaves as bad as mine, yet everybody seems to concede 3-under's noisier.  I've got to get an ILF and try it.
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Offline Easykeeper

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 02:42:00 PM »
First off, tune your bow to the best of your ability using the method described here...   acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning .   With a 50# bow I would probably start with the .400s and tune by playing with point weight, try and get your bare shafts and fletched to group together at 20 yards or so.  Randomly going from .500s to .300s, and everything in between in an effort to lower noise while disregarding tune is not going to be very productive in my opinion.

Your bow will shoot best with some proper combination of spine, arrow length and point weight, and most likely be the quietest there too.  For me the keys to a quiet bow have always been a proper tune, not too light an arrow, relatively high brace height, and the usual string silencers and for recurves some treatment where the string meets the limb.  

Three under is always a little louder for me but if you are more accurate that way it seems like a good trade off.

Online McDave

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 03:05:00 PM »
Following up Richard's post, I believe the excessive noise attributed to 3 under is most likely caused by the limbs recovering at different times, causing excess vibration and noise.

The question is, why would this happen on a bow that was tillered for 3 under?  I think the answer is also in Richard's post, and has to do with the relative pressure each finger exerts on the string.  I have tried to bare shaft tune certain bows tillered for 3 under where I never could get rid of a nock high. Finally, I would just give up on it and set the nock point at 3/4".  Lately, I've found that if I ease up on the pressure on my ring finger, those same bows will shoot nock level at a much lower nock point, like 1/2". Until I discovered this, I never would have believed I could tune a bow to shoot 3 under with a nock point of 1/2". The lowest I had before was 5/8", and I thought that was a fluke.  If the relative pressure has that much impact on the tuning of a bow, I have to believe it would have an equal impact on the timing of limb recovery, and perhaps noise.

In other words, even though a bow is tillered for 3 under, it may tune very differently, or not tune very well at all, depending on the relative pressure of the fingers on the string.  Some bows seem to be more sensitive than others in this regard.

I find it difficult to draw the bow with unequal pressure on my fingers. I have to consciously think about it and relax the pressure on my ring finger at full draw.  I don't think this is a good thing to do, and I hope with time I can draw the bow with the correct pressure on each finger without thinking about it.
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Offline Bjorn

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 03:45:00 PM »
Kirk (Bigfoot Bows) put up a drawing on another three under thread showing what happens to the string upon release with three under compared to split. Like Kevin Dill suggested above it is likely the uneven string 'bend' or 'flap' upon release. Kirk's was the most credible explanation I have heard in this regard.

Offline wandering monk

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 04:03:00 PM »
my 2 cents...a lot of bows arent really tillered for three under and off the shelf both...IMHO the best tiller for a 3 under is maybe 1/16" closer on the lower limb...and nock set at 1/16-3/16" above square...also cut to center or past?? adds to it all too.

I like a bigger patches of fur on the window because of paradox possibilities...for example an older Fred Bear style shelf (straight) does for sure make more noise...a curved one makes the contact point much more reduced.

I agree with the remark about the limbs closing too...another possibility to tghis calculus equation of noise?

in a perfect world(again IMHO)the throat of the handle should be exactly half the distance between limb tips for optium performance three under...and the arrow should be as close to your grip hand(in height) as possible...any deviations from those criteria will for sure interupt the equation as far as a bow being set up for three under...

also some folks "pluck" a bit with three under...the bottom finger should be the real focus on the hold and release w/ this style...no tension on the nock at all.I make my 3-u tabs so they are oversized a bit for that finger, I also increase thickness a bit too.

I tie floss around the area under the nock set just to help keep extra tension for the nock on the string and try to keep that top finger(especially at full draw) not pinching the nock...this could for sure cause noise too...the nock possibly hitting the ramp of the shelf .

as with all this stuff there are many opinions and cures...I discovered a lot of this by making some bows w/ different set ups...the shorter bows are always the harder ones to get perfcet...LB's are the easiest.but td/s are the easiest to tune tiller on after a bow is already made obviously...again...some bows arent made for three under , but split finger tabs or glove grtips.
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Offline bucksakemmer

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 05:56:00 PM »
Thanks Guys this has been a wealth of info for today, my last attempt for today was shooting two under with a cavalier tab... no difference
I am going to stop for now and I think I will start at the beginning like Easykeeper suggested and bare shaft all over again..this will take care of that variable.. and just work out from there,
this is almost like being lost the more confused you become the more you run in circles...
I will find the solution just no today
again thanks for all of you input..
j

Offline Onehair

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2013, 06:03:00 PM »
I can't stand the racket of 3 under but do like the way I shoot at closer distances. Last Friday I downloaded a Disciple Meter app and was surprised at how little difference there actually was. For instance my Bear TD shot 84 while split and 89 3 under. Just the sound of the outdoors was around 77. I snapped my fingers and hit in the mid 90's.

Offline Kevin Dill

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2013, 06:59:00 PM »
Believe it or not, I find the noise to be louder on my longbows than my recurves. After much thought and experimentation, I concluded that the additional limb-string contact area was helping dampen the noise which has its origins in the string. My longbows...lacking the additional string contact and dampening...produce a noticeably louder and sharper slap. I am sure the sound is brought about by 1) uneven limb-string travel which causes a 'snap' to occur in the string.

Interestingly for me: Hollow shafting seems to amplify the sound, while solid (woodies) are quieter...though not silent.

Offline katman

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2013, 07:40:00 PM »
I would consider getting a new string from Mr. Laclair as that is what he recommends for this bow.

Also, have you measured the tiller?
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Offline xtrema312

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2013, 08:45:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bjorn:
Kirk (Bigfoot Bows) put up a drawing on another three under thread showing what happens to the string upon release with three under compared to split. Like Kevin Dill suggested above it is likely the uneven string 'bend' or 'flap' upon release. Kirk's was the most credible explanation I have heard in this regard.
That post was the first thing I thought of when I saw this post. I think it explains some things.

I have also fund the ring finger to be a big player.  Try 2under and see what happens.

I had a CH and tried to shoot it 3under.  I tried a lot of stuff, but it was about the loudest bow I ever shot 3under.  It was also carbon foam. It was not tillered for 3under.  It was split quiet 2under, but split was still a different sound than I like because of the carbon and foam.

I have a couple MOABs.  One is tillered even.  It is quieter than the others shooting 3under, but still not near as quiet as shooting it split.  I  have not had other pair of bows tillerd both ways to see if the tillering always helps. I did notice a little improvement in an ILF bow with tiller changes, but couldn't tiller that to make 3under as quiet as split.  I think due to what Kirk posted.
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Offline BigJim

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2013, 07:38:00 AM »
While attending the Rod Jenkins clinic, I switched to three under (it was a suggestion). I expressed that It really didn't matter to me but I didn't care for the extra noise from the bow. Rod responded with
" If you use proper back tension and a relaxed forearm to get a proper release, It will be just as quiet"

I have found this to be absolutely true. When my release is smooth, my bow is quiet. Infact, just a couple of days ago, I was shooting my recurve in the house as a friend (longbow shooter) watched. He was so impressed by the quietness that he ordered a recurve for himself.

A lot of guys order bows tillered for three under and I do so because they ask, but in reality, the tillering makes little to no differnce and an even tillered bow will shoot well for both split and three under (not so with self bows for different reasons).

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Offline Jason Kendall

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2013, 07:46:00 AM »
"A lot of guys order bows tillered for three under and I do so because they ask, but in reality, the tillering makes little to no differnce and an even tillered bow will shoot well for both split and three under"

Back when OL Adcock was building bows, he said the same thing.

I shoot 3 under and notice no difference.

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Three Under Noise
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2013, 08:38:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bjorn:
Kirk (Bigfoot Bows) put up a drawing on another three under thread showing what happens to the string upon release with three under compared to split. Like Kevin Dill suggested above it is likely the uneven string 'bend' or 'flap' upon release. Kirk's was the most credible explanation I have heard in this regard.
I've seen some guys that use 3 fingers for the draw, then slip that bottom finger off the string and actually only use two on the release, They told me is was like taking the safety off.... it was much quieter. I've used the same theory on split finger with good results. That ring finger is just going along for the ride. Might as well get it out of the way....


   

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