Three Under Noise

[Kevin Dill]

That's a great illustration. Given that the noise is caused by uneven string angle/travel, the 2-finger release ought to be quieter.

And for only the sake of theory, a one-finger would be extremely quiet...as would a mechanical release.

[hvyhitter]

After 20 yrs of shooting 3 under and tuning over 2 dozen bows here is what I have observed.....

The noise seems to be "sharper" rather than "louder",think 12 gage vs '06. With any of the hundreds of people I've shot with and around, no one has ever commented on my "loud" bow.

Tiller makes no difference. Tune every bow from the start, find the right nock point and brace height for your bow, arrow, and form/release. No two bows are exactly  alike so what is perfect for one bow may be just close on another. Dont get lazy with "close enough".......

Some bows are just louder. I cant get 58" and shorter recurves as quiet as I like but have two different hill style bows that are whisper quiet.

Hope this helps but YMMV.............

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
That's a great illustration. Given that the noise is caused by uneven string angle/travel, the 2-finger release ought to be quieter.

And for only the sake of theory, a one-finger would be extremely quiet...as would a mechanical release.

A 2 finger release is quieter.... but... drawing heavy bows with only two fingers is really hard on the fingers. I've heard of some guys pulling tendons and laying themselves up shooting heavy bows too much like that.

If you want to play with it some time, draw using 3 fingers, and drop the ring finger at anchor. The first time i tried this was at a 3D shoot where it was below freezing weather. After 20 targets my fingers were going numb, and i was having a hell of a time getting off the string clean. I couldn't feel the string with my ring finger anyway, so i just got it out of the way. My shooting improved instantly.... I do the same thing now hunting in cold weather.

[wandering monk]

thats a great graphic...my only exception here would be on the extent of pressure & focus point of the string @ full draw...

the fistmele of the bow and the center focus of the throat are essential factors on using three under...your graphic did not show that all the way... it does give us all a cross section of whats going on. Bit it does put us all on the same page( as far as real pressure and pivots of three under)...sincere thanks for the effort to make it so!

my contention here is quite simple...if the center point of draw is even with the throat of the bow(beng also the center measure of the string from limb tip to limb tip)and the arrow being launched as close as possible to that plane...  you will experience quieter and smoother shots...not to mention the help aid offered by using the metric of the arrow vs. eye line up of three under...

when people shoot bows three under with the same style and set up as a split rig...the results will never be what all desire...

in no way will I agree that any style is"quieter" ...three under is really meant for the traditional archer that is shooting with two eyes open, the bow canted so that the target is entirely visible with both eyes open(I like to cant the bow as vertical as possible and still maintain total view of target)

...and a deliberate and actually pretty fast release...

for fast target acquisition...and the ability to make quick and aimed shot...something of great value IMHO to the traditional archer/hunter...

[olddogrib]

I think Kirk's illustration gets at what I was referring to if the limbs were shown.  The 3-under would logically cause the lower limb to be loaded more in relation to the upper. I would think this would mean the tips have more distance to travel on release to return to brace height, meaning the limbs would not return at precisely the exact moment causing noise, vibration, tuning difficulty, etc.  Why not counteract this by a positive tiller on the bottom limb (if I said that right), i.e. greater distance from the string to the fades on the lower limb so the limbs again return to brace simultaneously?

[Kevin Dill]

So many variable can figure in:

Length of bow, draw length, poundage, arrow specs and dynamics, string material, nocking point, silencer placement...the list could be long. Just maybe, the wild card is the man himself...finger size, finger position, roll-off/release, and pressure. Actually too many variables to study them all. I'd just love to see an extreme slow-motion video showing all the details of the release and shot...including release hand action, string movement and limb dynamics.

[xtrema312]

Form and release always makes a difference for me on sound regardless of split or 3under. But, I find it way less forgiving and a much larger volume change 3 under when I don't get off the string clean.  

I understand that some of the sound is tone not volume behind the bow, but I have also spent a fair amount of time shooting next to my barn wall and under its overhead door.  I can easily detect the sound difference in what is being projected in direction other than at me.  When I think I am shooting quiet 3 under, I often immediately notice it is not as quite as I thought when I get next to a surface that will reflect sound back to me.  Most times I am also shooting close or blind bail so really working on best possible form and release.  I switch a shot to split and only here the arrow and sound of the string cutting the air for the most part.

It is for sure possible to get some bows quiet 3 under.  I managed to get a PCH with standard strings, puffs, and limb contact padding to shoot very quiet.  It was tillered split also.  I think it was quieter than most BW's I have shot split.  

Getting the right string and silencer, brace height..... makes a big difference.  But, it is a lot harder and longer process for me 3 under if I do get it worked out.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

 thats a great graphic...my only exception here would be on the extent of pressure & focus point of the string @ full draw...

the fistmele of the bow and the center focus of the throat are essential factors on using three under...  

That's what i really love about archery. There is so much philosophy it keeps it entertaining...

Could you please explain the dynamics that are taking place from the "extent of pressure" and "fistmele of the bow and the center focus of the throat".  Being a bowyer i'm interested in these things...


 

Originally posted by olddogrib:
I think Kirk's illustration gets at what I was referring to if the limbs were shown.  The 3-under would logically cause the lower limb to be loaded more in relation to the upper. I would think this would mean the tips have more distance to travel on release to return to brace height, meaning the limbs would not return at precisely the exact moment causing noise, vibration, tuning difficulty, etc.  Why not counteract this by a positive tiller on the bottom limb (if I said that right), i.e. greater distance from the string to the fades on the lower limb so the limbs again return to brace simultaneously?

With 3 under you are not putting more pressure on the lower limb.... you are moving the arrow shaft up higher towards the top of the limb and typically even tiller is preferred over a positive tiller.... the exception to this rule is the pressure point being applied to the bows grip.

Shooting with a lower pressure point, heeling down as you would on a Hill style bow or a straight grip long bow. That is where you find that it effects the limb pressure, and a positive tiller is more desirable to eliminate hand shock.

[olddogrib]

Kirk,
I can buy that explanation, but when your release hand, for whatever reason, moves the arrow above or below the plane in which it would normally travel if the limbs are perfectly timed (which I would assume is roughly 90 degress in relation to the face of the riser) does it not change the linear distance one limb tip has to travel to return to brace height in relation to the other limb?  I would think this would impart up/down forces to the arrow nock(as opposed to straight ahead) if the limbs are "mistimed", for lack of a better word?

[Kevin Dill]

Originally posted by olddogrib:
Kirk,
I can buy that explanation, but when your release hand, for whatever reason, moves the arrow above or below the plane in which it would normally travel if the limbs are perfectly timed (which I would assume is roughly 90 degress in relation to the face of the riser) does it not change the linear distance one limb tip has to travel to return to brace height in relation to the other limb?  I would think this would impart up/down forces to the arrow nock(as opposed to straight ahead) if the limbs are "mistimed", for lack of a better word?

This is the same observation I make. The easy way to picture it is to imagine dropping the draw hand 6 or 8 inches down the string (below mid-point) and drawing the bow. Obviously, the lower limb would bend much more than the upper. Upon release, the limb recoveries would be different and probably contribute to noise.

[xtrema312]

I didn't think limb timing could be right shooting a positive tiller bow 3 under.  If it was then why would you need to move your nock up?  I assumed that was because of nock travel due to limb timing.  I could be wrong.

[dagwood64]

How about putting some mini limb savers on the bow to help with the noise?
I started shooting 3 under, and the only thing I changed was adding a bottom nock so my finger would not pinch my arrow. I didn't notice any difference in noise level either.
Only difference was my shooting better.  

[olddogrib]

XT312,
You're probably right, I'm just trying to understand the phenomenon from bowyers who design around these issues. Apparently some folks see no difference in noise between 3U and split, but I have to believe it's partialy explained by what happens in the shot sequence in relation to the drawing hand. I'm definitely not one and admittedly I probably pulled with most of the load on my index and ring fingers.  I thought limb timing when pulling the arrow out of its normal plane of travel was comparable to the problems everyone had with cam timing on wheel bows back when they first went to fastflite replacing cables.  Until they got the stretch under control, you were adjusting all the time.  Maybe this isn't an accurate analogy...Kirk?  Let's hear from the string walkers...if there's merit here they ought to get awful noise the further from center they draw?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You can put a lot of thought into limb timing....But most of it is built into the limbs... There are a lot more things involved than just upper and lower limb strength and tiller measurements. There is the mass weight of the limbs, the exact location of the working portion of the limb, which all needs to be balanced to the pre-load at brace to stop the string clean.

If you get too much mass weight in the outer limbs, and your working portion is shifted too close to your fades, rather than distributed evenly along the limb, it takes a very tight string at brace to stop those limbs dead.

Having the working portion of the limbs off from top to bottom limbs can cause serious vibration issues. (Two limbs bending in slightly different locations.)


often times with lighter weight bows, you can time everything right, and have good pre loads stopping the tips, but have limb bulge issues that cause vibration. The tips stop clean, but the limb bulges forward at mid limb. This will not effect the noise level, but it will effect the  performance level.

  The location and placement of your fingers on the string, the location of the string nock, and the exact pressure point on the grip being applied can all have effects on residual vibration felt in the riser after the shot..... but from one bow design to the next you'll get different results.

Each and every bow has a bit of personality difference. If you add in different draw weights and different arrow weights into the equation, you get even more differences.


The best thing we can do as archers is be patient and understanding with each bow we set up. Use different types of string, silencers,  and arrow weight to adjust your noise level. Find the balance point, or pressure point in the grip where you get the least amount of vibration, and stay as closes as possible to the bowyers recommended brace height....    Typically the noisiest bows out there can be quieted down with heavier shafts, and the right string.... if the bow does't have enough pre load and you get string slap typically found in RC bows... use yarn on the string or a felt pad on the limb tip.....

[BRITTMAN]

I have founnd that if i put more presure on my index and middlle finger and less pressure on my ring finger plus a clean release I have no more noise than i do split plus no sore ring finger

[scs336]

This is the second season shooting my Kanati longbow and I always thought the bow was a little loud.I bought the bow from the classifieds here and shoot 3 under also.The bow came with a SBD string (I think)and beaver fur silencers.When it looked like my string had had it I ordered a new string from Kustom King Archery.I put the new string on with cat whisker silencers and shot it I couldn't believe how quiet it was.I don't know if it was the string or silencers or both,but wow what a difference.

[Big Ed]

I add a little padding on the shelf and move my silencers further towards the tips. about 7 inches. Also have been shooting Bikini skinny strings. I actually had a 50 pound at 30" Classic Hunter and shot 340 Axis full length with 200 grains upfront and tuned and shot very quiet!

[McDave]

Originally posted by Kirkll:
You can put a lot of thought into limb timing....But most of it is built into the limbs... There are a lot more things involved than just upper and lower limb strength and tiller measurements. There is the mass weight of the limbs, the exact location of the working portion of the limb, which all needs to be balanced to the pre-load at brace to stop the string clean.

If you get too much mass weight in the outer limbs, and your working portion is shifted too close to your fades, rather than distributed evenly along the limb, it takes a very tight string at brace to stop those limbs dead.

Having the working portion of the limbs off from top to bottom limbs can cause serious vibration issues. (Two limbs bending in slightly different locations.)


often times with lighter weight bows, you can time everything right, and have good pre loads stopping the tips, but have limb bulge issues that cause vibration. The tips stop clean, but the limb bulges forward at mid limb. This will not effect the noise level, but it will effect the  performance level.

  The location and placement of your fingers on the string, the location of the string nock, and the exact pressure point on the grip being applied can all have effects on residual vibration felt in the riser after the shot..... but from one bow design to the next you'll get different results.

Each and every bow has a bit of personality difference. If you add in different draw weights and different arrow weights into the equation, you get even more differences.


The best thing we can do as archers is be patient and understanding with each bow we set up. Use different types of string, silencers,  and arrow weight to adjust your noise level. Find the balance point, or pressure point in the grip where you get the least amount of vibration, and stay as closes as possible to the bowyers recommended brace height....    Typically the noisiest bows out there can be quieted down with heavier shafts, and the right string.... if the bow does't have enough pre load and you get string slap typically found in RC bows... use yarn on the string or a felt pad on the limb tip.....

I love posts like this that teach me something new that I didn't know before!