730gr upfront. do you think i'll get it to fly? tuning under way now

[ozy clint]

cooking up a new buff arrow at the moment to go with the new black douglas HEX6 BB2 recurve i bought. the bow is 70#@28", i draw about 26.5"

arrow shaft is axis 300. 300gr tuff head and 6.5" 2016 footing. i've had some 'custom' adapters made that weigh 360gr. this gives me about 730gr upfront. total arrow weight at full length is 1100gr.
remember i will have a 6.5" footing which will reduce the length of the flexible portion of the shaft. the flexible portion of shaft at my minimum arrow length of 27 1/2" will be about 21 1/4".
the custom adapter can be trimmed to reduce point weight.
the footing will be drawn onto the bow, effectively padding out the strike plate a little.

the balance point of the arrow will lie within the footing, IMHO, greatly reducing , if not eliminating the chance of breakage behind the footing.

i need to get some 2016 shafts for footing material before i can try them out. till then, do you think i'll get them going?

[Piratkey]

Ouch ,take care,the shaft can break ...

[Bud B.]

I'm sure they'll go, but range will be an issue, or really trajectory will be, I believe.

I have a 72# Hill bow and with an arrow in the 700gr range I find it flies about as fast and with the same trajectory as my #47 Hill with 450ish gr arrows. There's no doubt the 700gr arrow hits the target harder and penetrates deeper, but with the ratios being about the same the trajectory is about the same.

Let us know how it works. If you shoot it enough and get the arrow flight/drop in your mind's aiming processors it shouldn't be a major concern. Tuning it will be something I'd like to hear about too as you progress.

[Bud B.]

What is your arrow shaft choice and spine?

[sticksnstones]

I'm one of the craziest arrow guys I know, and that sounds very extreme to me. First I'd worry about the bow and the *20gpp you'd be asking that bow to push. If the bowyer says it's safe, you should give it a shot. I hope it's cut about 1/4th" past center, if it's cut farther you might need to pad it to make the Axis/2016 work.

Next, I'd look hard at adhesives you plan to use. As soon as I went crazy I had all sorts of stuff failing me there. Super glue, insert iron, hot glue, etc. I had some chats with Jay Campbell  who has had great luck with the original Gorilla Glue, but JB Weld ended up being my answer for everything. Good luck finding yours before you loose any Expen$ive 300 grain points into target butts!

Finally, a 2016 shaft is pretty thin walled and as an aluminum arrow it's quite prone to bending and breakage. I'll say that I've found any amount of footing to be better than none, but I've been toying with the idea of turning my own footings on a lathe so I could use materials other than aluminum and tweak thickness. Be sure to do a nice soft bevel on the footing if you are pulling it over the shelf.

I'm half tempted not to post this as I'm just another "internet expert" who hasn't shot a buffalo yet, but I do have lots of hands on testing time shooting hard targets so I hope something above is helpful. Let me know if you want to go over any tests or results in detail.
Thom

[Bud B.]

Axis...see it now..dang morning eyes DOH!

[atatarpm]

Ozy I have shoot that weight with ABS Safari shaft out of a 63 lbs recurve and they did quite well.  I will agree with sticknstones on glues Gorilla glue or J B Weld.

[bowfanatik]

Don't worry about trajectory , they will fly straight .I owned Black Douglas HEX6 BB2 , you can put more weight if you want . Joy in your bow .
Only i can recommended Carbon Express Heritage or Gold Tip Traditional

[beendare]

I think you might be on to something with the long 2016 footing. I wonder if the added clearance and front end stiffness will aid Accurate arrow flight?

I've used the footing on my Axis but  it was 2013s with epoxy and only 3/4" long. The 2013 fit perfect with a thin epoxy layer, I don't know if 2016 would work.

I shot my buff with an 850 gr arrow ( pass through) but if I did it again would be at 1000 gr

[ozy clint]

Originally posted by sticksnstones:
 First I'd worry about the bow and the *20gpp you'd be asking that bow to push.

1050gr (allowing some trimming) and 68-70# draw weight is around 15gpp not 20gpp.

this should actually be very close to the arrow weight of the point of diminishing returns in terms of momentum. any more weight and momentum values start going down again. 1000gr arrow mass was this tipping point for my 69#bob lee recurve. the more efficient black douglas should be at that 1000-1100gr range for maximum momentum from the bow.

trajectory won't be an issue. i shoot my buffulo inside 20 yards.    

[ChuckC]

Sounds silly, but make sure your nocks are strong and up to it.  Using a mid 80s# bow and a modified Beman Hunter (the skinny one with outserts) I blew up two nocks (on release) using a 1100 grain + arrow.  Solder, wrapped in yarn, inside the shaft really adds some weight.

Don't be surprised if you knock the target over when it hits it.

Owie !

ChuckC

[Friend]

Good luck with your set-up.

Would be interested in the final arrow design and also what back stop proves durable enough.

[JimB]

I have no idea whether it will tune or not,a lot of factors have to come together for that.It sounds like it should be an awesome arrow for buffalo.I have shot 15 GPP arrows and no issues out to the ranges you are talking about.

I will say I doubt if the balance point being within  the footing will reduce the chance of breaking at the rear of the footing.That custom adapter should really do a lot for the strength of the front of that arrow.

I'm looking forward to hearing how it turns out.

[JamesKerr]

I would be most concerned about the spine of the axis shaft breaking. With that much weight up front the only way you may be able to have a spine stiff enough is to double shaft the entire arrow.

[Fanto]

hey clint

You know how Ed Ashby talks about Internal Footings?

he doesnt go into detail in any of the reports as far as I could find, but once on here or back on Ozbow he mentioned that his internal footing is a piece of tas oak dowell from the hardware (bunnings) which is 6-8" long. importantly, he gently tapers the back half so its a little thinner, using a sander. he then glues it in behing the insert, so that the front half of the dowel is glued in and the back half is "free"

he said this has the effect of gradually increasing the stiffness of the shaftm spreading the load and avoiding breakage.

cheers

[Fanto]

also,

have you read Ashby on PNG's bowhunters?

worth a read. they use upto 2000gr points for total arrow weight 4000gr. they dont use feathers. Ashby reckons they arrows are slower than 100fps. and absolutely completely and totally silent and that the Axis deer dont even react at the shot.  draw weight maybe 80lbs but using a split bamboo pole for a bow.

Your bow may be a tad more efficient..

[nineworlds9]

Hex BB2 @ 70#??  NO WORRIES.  But likely a bit of rainbow indeed.

[ozy clint]

jimB- can you elaborate as to why you don't think having the balance point forward of the end of the footing will help prevent breakage there.
just curious to know if i'm missing something in my train of thought.

on sunday i was shooting 680gr arrows out of this bow. 350gr upfront on an axis 400 that is 30 1/4" long. flew almost like a dart. i'm convinced that carbons are stiffer than most people think. hopefully 300's will work, fingers crossed

[Benjy]

I build my arrows with 450 grains on the front for gator hunting. I use a 300 spine arrow, 30" long at my 29" draw length. My draw weight at my 29" draw length is 52#.

I just did an arrow for my daughter this past September for her Gator. It was a 29" beman 340 spine with 500 grains on the point end. This was shot out of her Zipper SXT at her 25" draw length and 35# at her draw length.


I think the secret will be to get the 2016 footing the right length to get the spine stiff enough to work for you.

Can't wait to see your results!

Benjy

[slivrslingr]

Sounds like an interesting project, looking forward to your results!