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Author Topic: Modifing The Grizzly  (Read 1075 times)

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Modifing The Grizzly
« on: September 10, 2007, 08:53:00 PM »
Thanks to all of you who've written to me, and let me apologize to each of you who've emailed and not received a personal reply. The response to the single-bevel article has been totally overwhelming, and it would take a two-finger typist like me many weeks just to reply to them! So, here's the answer for all of you who've emailed asking precisely how I modify the 190 grain Grizzly. For all those who've asked about the L-shaped exits and fletching-rotation vs. bevel-induced rotation, I'm putting a separate post on about them.

Tip Modification:

On all Grizzly broadheads, I modify the Tanto tip to a cut on impact design. Due to some results from this year's testing with the 190 Abowyer, which will show up in the Part 6 Update, I'll be taking a critical look at what effect the type and positioning of the Tanto tip's bevel has on performance in upcoming studies. It appears there MAY be some significant difference in bone performance, depending on how and where the tip is beveled; but I won't go into the details of that here. Currently, the bevel I'm adding on the Modified Grizzly is a single-bevel that's on the reverse side of the blade face from the edge bevel; for that half of the blade. I hope to find out in the next round of test if this is the most effective, or whether a different configuration might work better.

I also alter the angle of the Tanto tip slightly, changing the angle of tip attack from the factory 40 degrees to one of 30 degrees. The ONLY reason I use 30 degrees on the Grizzly's tip is because it's the angle that 'feels right' to me as I apply it; no other reason. At this point in testing I have NO specific information indicating that 30 degrees is superior to 40 degrees. Whether or not this change has much effect remains undetermined, and is also being looked at in testing.

Narrowing the blade:

In making the Modified Grizzly, the 190's blade is narrowed at the rear, to a cut width of 1". I DO NOT narrow the entire blade taper. The purpose of the modification is to change the rate of blade taper. After grinding, the new blade profile has the same blade width AT THE REAR EDGE OF THE TANTO TIP as it did before grinding. Until I became accustomed to making the modification I found it useful to scribe a line down the face of the broadhead, to serve as a guide of for the new blade slope. The following diagram shows this modification.

 

This modification changes the slope of the blade, decreasing the blade's angle of attack and increasing the blade's mechanical advantage (MA). The factory 190 has a MA of 2.75. After modification the MA is 3.25. As you'll see in the new updates, this 18% increase in broadhead MA yields more than an 18% increase in average penetration; because of the mechanics of the impulse of force – and how, and to what degree, this affects penetration is explained in detail in the upcoming Updates.

Higher MA means the broadhead can do the same amount of 'work' with less force, but there's also a very important, but less-often recognized benefit. Higher broadhead MA also means the peak resistance force encountered is lower as the broadhead accomplishes any penetration task. This also means the peak resistance force is lowered, reducing the amount of 'stress' on the entire arrow system. The reduced stress makes it less likely the broadhead – or any other arrow component – is going to break or bend on hard impact.

The Edge Bevel:

The final stage is to reset the edge-bevel to 25 degrees. It's my understanding that the new production heads have had the bevel changed to as flat an angle as the grinding machine they have will do, about 27 degrees; and that would probably work very nearly as well as the 25 degree I use. However, the longer (lower angled) the bevel is the better, in terms of edge sharpness and cutting efficiency – up to the level where the hardness of the metal is no longer sufficient for the edge to resist deformation.

Here are measurements from a 190 Grizzly and the Modified Grizzly:

Grizzly 190 grain: freshly sharpened and tip modified to COI Tanto: OAL: 3.135"; Cut Width: 1.125"; Angle of blade attack: 9.0 degrees. Attack angle of Tanto tip: 30 degrees; Blade Thickness: 0.057"; MA: 2.75; Edge-bevel: 25 degrees.
 
Modified Grizzly (170 grains, finished weight): OAL: 3.135; Cut Width: 1.0"; Cutting angle (angle of Attack): 7.4 degrees. Attack angle of Tanto tip: 30 degrees; Blade Thickness: 0.057"; MA: 3.25; Edge-bevel: 25 degrees.

The 160 Grizzly can be modified in the same manner, and what you'll end up with is a Mini-El Grande. Before modification, the 160 has a MA of 2.58. After modification its MA is 2.75 – exactly the same as the 190 grain's.

During 2005 testing some bending problems were encountered with the 160 grain Grizzly. Modifying it offers one way of reducing this tendency to bend. How? As mentioned above, higher MA not only allows a broadhead to do the same work with less force, it also means that the broadhead is subjected to less peak resistance force during the moment of impulse as it accomplishes any individual penetration task. Less peak resistance equals less peak stress. Is the difference significant? Yes. On the 160 Grizzly the modification represents approximately a 7% reduction in applied force needed for a given task – and that means 7% less peak resistance stress. If you look back at the 2005 Updates, you'll see that I speculated that the differing MA (from the 190) might have been a factor in the bending and compression the 160 grain heads suffered.

In the newer testing I used some 160's hardened to the same level as the 190's and none bent. Whether or not this change in tempering is going to be made (or has been made) to the production 160's, I don't know. Regardless, though I'd like to see the hardness increased to R52-53, and still must consider it the likely source of the unmodified 160's bends, making this modification to the 160 Grizzly will result in a higher MA; which will mean a bit more penetration and a reduced tendency to bend.

Most would think making the blade narrower would weaken it, making it more likely to bend, but that's not the case; though it will be the case if you simply move the entire bevel in, narrowing the blade equally along its entire length. It's the changing of the angle of blade attack that helps the most; a more gradually inclined plane with a higher MA, without significantly lowering the rigidity of the tip area forward of the ferrule's fade-in.

Unlike modifying the 190, you won't have to remove nearly as much metal from the 160 gr. to make the change. You'll only need to narrow the back of the blade by about 7/100th of an inch. Considering how little metal you'll have to remove, and the fact that the factory-fresh 160's I received weigh in at 166.5 grains, I think it will come out weighing very close to 155 grains after all modifications; possibly a tad more. I haven't done a Mini-El Grade myself, and have simply worked out the 'numbers' for someone who asked me if there was a way to improve the performance of the 160's they were using.

The critical part is to make the modification correctly. Just remember that you don't want to move the entire bevel in; you want to change the slope of the blade. Narrow the blade at the rear, but leave the Tanto tip the same width.

Not only will this modification reduce the tendency for the broadhead to bend, it ups the penetration potential of your arrow. The MA gain will far exceed the tiny advantage the extra few grains of arrow mass would have made.

And, yes, applying these modifications to any of the other weights of the Grizzly will yield similar benefits, but it won't make them as strong as the modified 190 grain. Most of the lighter versions do not have as great a metal thickness as the 190, and are hardened to a slightly lower R value.

I hope this answers most of the questions everyone has asked.

Ed

Offline John Havard

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 07:34:00 AM »
TTT

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 09:07:00 AM »
illuminating as always, Doctor!
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Offline ChuckC

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 09:53:00 AM »
Thank you Dr Ashby.  Many of us want to try this out, but we still have the issue of left / right wing.  Does anybody know if Grizzly and others are willing to sell their broadheads with both bevels, or.  maybe better yet....unsharpened so we can apply the bevel of our choice ?  I myself would prefer that option, and it would make life even easier for the manufacturer.

ChuckC

Offline Tom Krein

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 03:09:00 PM »
Dr. Ashby,
I have some of the 190gr and 160gr broadheads in route.  I will see what I can do.  I don't think this is going to be a problem.

If the broadheads could be had unsharpened it would be so much easier!

Tom

Offline BamBooBender

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 03:31:00 PM »
Great work!

Anything in the works for an "Ashby special"( or something like that) grizzly head to be produced by the manufacturer.?  If you don't mind tellin, of course.
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Offline drewsbow

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 03:37:00 PM »
chuckc :  I was thinking the same thing . I would like to get the grizzly with the bevel on the other side to go with the left wing feathers. I don't think you could regrind the griz to the other side without taking too much off the front .  Dr. Ashbey ?? could you shed some light on this one please . Thanks Drew
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Offline J-dog

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 07:33:00 PM »
Always good reading, thinking bout trying the grizzly after sitting and reading your reports. They are very interesting and helpful, as in firefighting I think bowhunters should always plan for the worst.

I want to hit him behind the shoulder but if I hit the blade I want to get through it. this reading is good for that.

Thankyou Sir,

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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 10:36:00 PM »
I'm in the same boat as everyone else. I'd love to get one I didn't have to modify at all! Sure would save a lot of work. As for having both a left and right bevel ... why not? As it is at the moment, I have to build duplicate arrow sets, one set fletched each way, for testing with the Grizzly and the 190 Abowyer.

Ed

Offline TaterHill Archer

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2007, 10:53:00 PM »
Can we see a good photo of how your modify the tip.? I've seen a photo or 2, but I never could tell exactly how they looked.
Jeff

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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2007, 11:14:00 PM »
Jeff,

Well, it's hard to show well in a photo, but I'll go try a few to see if I can get one (or some). If not, I'll try to work up a sketch. However, I'm still testing on the tip bevel options (not the tip's profile, but its angles and the type an placement of each edge bevel on the tip). My interest in looking at this came about because of some really perplexing test outcomes with the 190 gr. Abowyer - but that's all in the new Updates. So, whatever I can come up with, just be aware that I'm still experimenting in this area of the broadhead's design.

Ed

Offline BamBooBender

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2007, 11:22:00 PM »
Dr. Ashby,

I have a feeling that were going to see more heads with a single bevel in the near future, I just hope grizzly is going to put out one based on your modifications. In addition,I honestly believe that, after all the work you have obviously put into this and then posted it here for the benefit of all, that if they were to bear your name in some way it would be more than fitting.jmho

-James
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Goodbye Shiner you were always a good dog.

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 01:13:00 AM »
Jeff,

I just tried for a few photos with the camera hand held. Not as good as I'd like, so here's a sketch of the three types of tip bevels I'm working with at the moment.

 

I've used all three of these in hunting, but #1 is the type I've used the most. I should be able to tell you a lot more about which, if any, offers the most advantages over the others after next year's testing.

As you can see, the two single-beveled versions would cause a different 'small tip movement' at impact. Number one would cause a micro-rotation counterclockwise, then the rotation would revert to clockwise as soon as the main blade's bevel entered the bone.  Type two would start clockwise rotation at impact and continue that direction of rotation as the main blade's bevel enters the bone. Type 3 would just 'stick in', with no rotation beginning until the blade-bevel enters the bone.

I must admit that I wish I had been paying a lot more attention (to what difference this might make) a long time ago. Honestly, they have all worked very well on the high MA Grizzly, though I THINK that bevel #1 seems to allow the main blade's bevel to gain purchase a bit easier on adverse angle impacts. It seems to chip away a larger surface flake, allowing the main blade easier access to the softer bone beneath the bone's hard exterior - BUT, AT THIS POINT, I'M FAR FROM CERTAIN ABOUT THAT. But, as you'll see in the Part 6 Update, it looks like I've now found a BH that MIGHT make seeing any difference easier.  Hope this helps.

James, thanks for th kind words, but I really don't care what they call it - I'd just like to be able to get them without all the effort of modifying the 190's!

Ed

Offline Naphtali

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 12:13:00 PM »
Ed:

You identify the El Grande 190's blade thickness as .057 inches. This broadhead appears to incorporate a [brazed??] thickened laminated tip. What is blade thickness at tip? How far does this thickness extend rearward?
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Offline tippit

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2007, 09:48:00 PM »
Dr Ashby,  Thanks so much for all your info & effort.  Last year I played around with forged heads and really liked the Grizzly style.  Now I need to play some more with a purpose.  Grinding one edge is easier than a double bevel.   :thumbsup:  Jeff

 
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Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2007, 09:55:00 PM »
Jeff,

I killed two pigs with that head..by the way. And I changed it to a single bevel and tantoed the tip...it was a lot of work!!!!

Great head..good steel.
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Offline tippit

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2007, 09:59:00 PM »
Ray, I didn't know that!  That's great but next time send it back and I can save you the work.  A good grinder can do it in minutes.  Doc
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Offline Biggie Hoffman

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2007, 05:20:00 PM »
Geez you guys take something as simple and deadly as a broadhead and make it as difficult as you can.

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Offline tippit

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2007, 05:24:00 PM »
Biggie, It keeps me from watching too much TV  :bigsmyl:  Doc
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Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Modifing The Grizzly
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2007, 05:59:00 PM »
Big....how you doin'? Been in a tree yet??
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