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Author Topic: does tiller matter in recurve bows?  (Read 789 times)

Offline Easykeeper

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 07:05:00 PM »
I don't buy the differential twist rate between what's above the serving and what's below, in my opinion it will even out under tension.

Rick - what have you done so far for to minimize the noise of your bow?  You should be able to get it pretty quiet with a combination of brace height, arrow weight, tuning, and of course a smooth release from your fingers (often the most difficult to achieve).

I usually set my brace height at the top of the recommended range (bowyer recommendation) and experiment by adding or subtracting a few twists at a time.  You should be able to hear a difference and there will be a spot where it is quietest.  Sometimes at the top is not the quietest place but in my experience it usually is so I start there.  I often end up a little bit over the recommended, my Blacktails are noticeably quieter about 1/4 over what Norm recommends.

Relatively heavy arrows help a lot, I like mine in the middle range, 9-11 grains per pound of draw weight.

Tuning makes a big difference too.  This is a good link on a process that works well   ( www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning  ).

I'm assuming you have string silencers on, some yarn on the ends of the string where it contacts the limb is important too.  Mole skin works for sting/limb contact too but I think something like Bow Hush looks nicer.

Offline Alexander Traditional

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 07:17:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bigbadjon:
I'll chime in on the string twist. On a flemish twist string it is possible for the serving to keep the top half of the string from twisting at the same rate as the bottom making the bottom half a mush tighter twist. Even though the string is the same length it will pull the top limb further back and put the tiller out of whack. This happened to me with my ACS and gave me a fit trying to resolve it.
I have found this to be true also. I've mostly had trouble putting wool type silencers in,but once I figured out what was going on I just made sure to give the top a little more twist. It does make a difference on flemish twist strings. Also some of the recurves I have show to have a higher brace height around eight or even a little more. You could try playing with it a little and see if it helps.

Online McDave

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2013, 08:02:00 PM »
I'm no expert on this, but I wonder if it's not the serving that is keeping the twists from being equalized, but the individual bundles.  When you make the top string loop, it's easy to get the twists out of the bundles before you begin to make the bottom loop.  If you just make the bottom loop without doing anything else, there will be a lot of twists in each bundle near the bottom string loop, and this will create a situation where that section of the bowstring will resist the twists you put in the bowstring as a whole, so there will be more twists on the other end of the bowstring.  The way to avoid this is to either work the twists in the bundles down so they are uniform through the bundle, or better, to put put counter twists in each bundle before you start to make the second loop, so that after you make the second loop there aren't many twists in each bundle.
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Offline BAK

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 11:07:00 PM »
So if what your describing were true, cutting off and inch of the top string, and tying a new loop on the end would just put more bend in the top limb!  Am I the only one who realizes how totally ridiculous that sounds.  It's physically impossible.
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Offline Rick Moss

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2013, 11:13:00 PM »
im already getting to the point where I am about to just hang this thing up and keep shooting my Hoyts. I came to traditional to try something new and to try 'simple' out, but it is proving anything but simple. oh well, I have fun with my compounds and I know I will hit what I shoot at.

Offline mahantango

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2013, 11:58:00 PM »
You really need to get with someone who's good at tuning stickbows - it's really not all that complicated. And I'm calling BS on this differential twist thing ????
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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2013, 01:27:00 AM »
Of course differential twisting is BS, but it was fun BS. It will stay that way until you string your bow. Rick needs to get in touch with someone that can help him out.  If that bow is banging really loud, someone with experience could spot the problem very easily during the shooting process. If no one is available a video with sound might help.

Offline bamboo

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2013, 06:15:00 AM »
tiller is a direct result of string length at brace

string length is adjusted by twisting or untwisting the string

you can NOT adjust tiller or pull one limb or the other more by twisting the string on different ends-period
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Offline olddogrib

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2013, 07:31:00 AM »
Maybe I'm missing something but it appears you have a bow built with positive tiller for a split finger release, don't know what was ordered.  3-under bows are generally tillered even. These are apparently starting points as most 3-under shooters will readily admit it's noisier than split on the same bow, regardless of tiller. Given this observation, I asked not long ago why you don't see many bows negatively tillered (slightly greater distance string to riser on bottom limb) and found out it's a fairly common set-up for 3U ILF shooters.  I'm getting a set of limbs negatively tillered and I'll keep you posted how they work out. There are evidently way more nuances in the way each of us shoot a bow than a bowyer can design for unless you ask for a certain feature.  I think one of the curses of traditional archery is that after a few million shots your form (not that mine's anything to brag about,lol) gets consistent enough that you start tinkering with seemingly miniscule changes in grip, finger position/pressure on the string, etc. and you're stunned to discover how little it takes to make a bare shaft do horrible things! This can be highly rewarding when you know exactly what you intentionally changed and can "undo" it or a nightmare when it's the result of subtle bad habits that have crept into your form over time and you don't have a clue!
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Offline Don Stokes

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2013, 07:48:00 AM »
The Archery Traditions t/d recurve I'm shooting has the limbs marked as top and bottom, the top limb being very slightly weaker to create positive tiller. You can get negative for 3 under by switching the limbs. Did that accidentally for a guy who shot 3 under and the bow shot beautifully for him.
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Offline Don Stokes

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2013, 07:50:00 AM »
Rick, don't give up. Once you get it right you'll never look back.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Ben Franklin

Offline Lamey

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2013, 08:30:00 AM »
Don't let this issue of a "loud" bow be frustrating... look at it as time to experiment, a challenge... time to spend outdoors having fun solving the issue.

Offline xtrema312

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2013, 09:22:00 AM »
Are you sure you are not hitting the riser with the arrow? Try raising the nock point some to see.

Different silencers make a big difference in sound from one bow to the next. Try some cat whiskers. Try two sets at/ & 1/4 points.

What is you bow weight at your draw length? What is your arrow shift type, length and point weight? Let's figure out where you really are for arrow weight to bow draw weight.

I will buy into the fact that something in the string construction could cause the string to unequally take twist changes.  This would move the nock point a little. It could even cause some other minimal issues due the string flexing if it was all bound up on one end. I would think it would have to be a real bad string to do much.  However, that will not impact tiller.  The string is a simple tension member connecting the two limb ends.  It makes no difference what that tension member is.  The Force is the same and comes from the limbs.
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Offline 30coupe

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2013, 10:57:00 AM »
The string can cause a bow to be loud. I'm going to have to disagree with the B50 guys, though. I've never been able to get a bow as quiet with B50 as I can with D97.

Barry Wensel shoots a Tall Tines bow, so I seriously doubt there is an inherent problem with your bow. Barry knows a thing or two about bows, I'm told.

You haven't answered whether you are shooting split or 3 under as far as I can see. Your bow will be louder shot 3 under as it is tillered for split. I assume you ordered the bow new, judging by what you paid, so you should have discussed your shooting style with the bowyer. That being the case, let's assume you shoot split, you told the bowyer that, and he built the bow to fit your shooting style.

Now that we can eliminate tiller as the issue, let's address the sound. The arrow hitting the bow on release will usually result in a clicking or scraping noise (like dragging an arrow shaft across the riser). Your description of the sound seems more like a twang or ring after the arrow leaves the bow. If that is the case, arrow spine can probably be ruled out, and possibly form issues as well.

Next, we need to address arrow weight. The heavier you go, the quieter you bow will be, generally speaking. Obviously, there is a point at which you lose more than you gain by adding arrow weight, but assuming you are not getting too carried away, heavier arrows = less noise. For under 20 bucks you can get a digital scale from several sponsors here. Since you have paid over a grand for your bow, this investment would seem wise and may keep your bow from just hanging on the wall. Shoot for an arrow that weighs about 10 grains per pound of draw weight. Eleven won't hurt. Much over 12 grains per pound, and I start to see my arrows drop faster than I like (messes up my internal calibration of where I'm going to hit). Make sure whatever weight you shoot is spined correctly. Many here bareshaft tune. I prefer paper tuning, but either one will get you there. Tuning is and ABSOLUTE MUST, not just for noise but for penetration and accuracy.

If your arrows are in the correct weight range, I'd change the brace height next. Most of the recurve bows I have had like higher rather than lower brace heights. Some of the old Bear bows were braced at 9 or even 10 inches, so don't be afraid to go higher than you are now.

You see, it is necessary to try to figure out what is NOT causing the noise before you can determine what IS. If you have padded the limbs, you have minimized one of the usual causes of noise in a recurve bow: string slap. Bow still twanging? Do you have a bow quiver available to try? Often a quiver full of arrows will absorb some or all of the twang. Just make sure your fletching doesn't touch or you will create a whole new noise. If the quiver works, you are set.

If the quiver didn't to the trick, it's time for a different string. Many, me included, have had success quieting bows by reducing the strand count in our strings. Some even go down to 6 strands, but I've never been comfortable with that nor have I found it necessary. I pad the loops with additional strands to 15-16 total. I normally use B50 for padding because I have a bunch and it is cheap. I have tried D97 as well for padding and can't tell any difference in noise, performance, or string creep, so being rather cheap, I opt to use B50 as do some of the professional string makers on here. The taper of the padded loop into the skinnier string seems to help reduce noise as does the reduced mass of the string. Theoretically, there is also some increased performance since more energy can be imparted on the arrow instead of being wasted with string mass. I can't say I've really noticed all that much difference myself, but I like quiet over speed, so I'm not really looking to gain performance.

Finally, I have to ask if your bow is a one piece or a three piece? I've had some three piece bows that needed just a bit of a cushion or pad between the riser and limbs. Neither of my current three piece bows do, but in the past I have had some that benefited from a thin pad of some sort. A simple layer of packing tape did it for one. A thin layer of cork gasket material or deerskin works well on some bows. In fact one of the bows I had came with cork padding installed. I can't seem to recall which bow it was, but that really doesn't matter.

Some guys see results using Limbsavers. I bought a bow that had them on it. I thought they were ugly and the bow was still louder than I like. I made a new string and it quieted right down. I took the limbsavers off and it was still quiet but looked much better. I think they are still in a drawer in my shop somewhere. I'd try them as a last resort, I suppose, but I doubt you will need them.

Traditional really is simpler. There are adjustments that can be made but they are really not all that difficult. Try one at a time, starting with the arrows, you will.

Probably the best advice I can give, especially if this is a new bow, is to call the man who built it and see what he recommends! I have never shot a Tall Tines bow, but they have a great reputation, so I'm sure the bowyer would do his best to make you happy with your bow. Most bowyers are more than willing to help you even if you bought the bow used. I have talked to several and got great responses.

Good luck with your new bow!
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Offline jackdaw

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2013, 12:25:00 PM »
I had some recurves that refused to "shut up" until I got the brace height above 8"....one even at 8 3/4".....you might shed a tiny bit of speed by doing this, but so what. My situation was compounded by shooting 3 fingers under, which puts more stress on the lower limb.....I'd definitely play with it before trying any tiller modification.
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Offline wingnut

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2013, 12:36:00 PM »
I haven't read all of the posts but did anyone ask if you are shooting split finger or three under.  With split the positive tiller will be fine but with three under it can make them very loud.

If you are shooting three under you may need to move your nock point up to about 3/4 inch to get the limbs back in timing.

Yep dang simple stick bows still require some knowledge to set up.  But way fewer tools then a compound.  LOL

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Offline Dirtybird

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2013, 01:04:00 PM »
30 coupe, I didn't read your whole post but Rick is very new to traditional and the bow isn't as loud as he is making it out to be.  But getting a new adviser is funny.   :laughing:    Rick shoots three under at the moment and so do I.  He has only been shooting for a week so he is not use to traditional bows at all!!!  He doesn't like the accuracy compared to his compound and his compound has a different thump upon release than this bow.  As any bowyer will tell you the nocking point can be adjusted to fit his or hers style of shooting even if the bow is tillered for split or vise versus.

Offline Rick Moss

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2013, 01:17:00 PM »
f this! I will keep my compounds and all of you can have your sticks. I appreciate the help and tips. and 30 couple, I would bet the deed to my house that dirtybird could tune circles around a lot of people...I would bet that he will out shoot ninety percent of the people on this forum. I see him hit pop cans at fifty yards all day with his recurves. no offense to anyone here...I appreciate the help, I really do...but this just isn't for me. I want to be able to pick up my bow and hammer a baseball sized target at fifty yards, ten out of ten times. I can do that all day with my compounds, and don't want to really piss with this crap right now. I thought I did, but I really don't. I don't have the patience right now for it.

Offline East Coast archer

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2013, 01:32:00 PM »
Baseball size groups at 50 yards!  I guess Robin Hood is in town.     :eek:   Did you ever get in touch with the bowyer?  Usually they are very helpful.  I don't doubt dirty birds shooting but expecting to get a new traditional bow and shoot like that is kinda like,    :archer2:
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Offline 30coupe

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Re: does tiller matter in recurve bows?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2013, 02:27:00 PM »
Rick, I bet you are right about Dave. I also bet he can shoot your bow as well as you say. But it is not a compound, so taking it to someone to have them tune it for you isn't quite the way it works. Even if you both shoot three under, your draw length, your form, and your release will be different. While others can certainly help, and it sounds as if Dave has TRIED to help you, you have to tune your own bow. Most of us here happen to like that aspect of traditional archery.

My sincere apologies to Dave (Dirtybird). I have no doubt you have tried your best, Dave.

Traditional archery does require patience. I've been shooting traditional bows for over 50 years, and I still hope to someday be able to hit pop cans at 50 yards all day. I certainly can't yet, but I'm very patient so it may happen one day. Deer at anything under 25 yards are no problem though, so I guess I'll stay with my sticks.    :archer:
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