whats pushing it with a 42lb treadway longbow and sbd string

[bowless]

Definitely no expert here, but isn't KE the most important factor?  I'm sure someone here has the formula.

[Orion]

Nope.  KE is pretty much meaningless for an arrow.  The compound folks like it, and, of course, it makes sense for rifle bullets, but momentum is a much better measure of penetration than kinetic energy when applied to arrows.

[hybridbow hunter]

Guys I  am sorry but with a certified chrono, there is absolutely no way this bow, if really 42#,  shoot @ 174 fps a 13,33 gpp arrow at a real 28" drawlenght and hand release. That means something in the 200+ fps at 10 gpp and 28" DL        

Regarding to the design, with that 560 gr arrow and 42# at 28", real speed should be more in the low 160 fps range

[Nativestranger]

Originally posted by Orion:
Nope.  KE is pretty much meaningless for an arrow.  The compound folks like it, and, of course, it makes sense for rifle bullets, but momentum is a much better measure of penetration than kinetic energy when applied to arrows.

The issue with using momentum as measure for penetration is if you play around with chrono testing of different bow and arrow weight combinations, you will notice there comes a point where a light bow shooting a very heavy arrow can actually produce higher momentum measurement than a heavier bow shooting a lighter arrow. But reality, the heavier bow will always penetrate better pointing to KE being the determining factor. Here's the article of test done by Jack Howard

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000114

[jrchambers]

still if the chrono is off and his shooting with both bows is consistant, you see that the lower lb bow, how much lower we don't really know but it is for sure lower, pushes the same arrow harder.  and the numbers for the 50lb bow are right on target of what they should be.
Ill wait to judge until I see video and actual draw weights,  oh deadpool if you havnt made the vid yet make a mark on your arrows where you draw too and try and get that on film when you shoot them, that way we can see if there is a change in dl

[md126]

In my opinion this is the problem w/ the internet, and chronographs for that matter...

too much info, "experts", and opinions. I've never chrono'd a bow and probably never will. I know when a bow is fast enough and it's how they shoot overall that really makes them special.

Deadpool, just go enjoy your bow, whether it's hunting, 3D, etc..  alot of people never find that "magic" bow and are just skeptical (even jealous) of those who have

just my 2 cents....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The internet is a great place to share stories and knowledge. Granted you still need to take a lot of these posts with a grain of salt.

There is nothing wrong with using a chronograph at all. it's a tool that many bowyers use to measure their gains in performance. There are also a lot of guys out there that are very interested in the evolution of stick bows and as we get closer and closer to a 100% efficiency, the gains become smaller and smaller and the accuracy of the testing becomes critical.

There are others that don't care a bit about the advancements we've made in performance, and say "Speed don't matter."  That's cool... Peace be with you.

I for one would like to see this video of your testing deadpool... after you have weighed each bow accurately as well as the arrows, i think you may find things come out a bit differently.

i'd bet the 42 pound bow is probably drawing 45-46 pounds, and the 50 # bow is probably drawing close to the same weight as the lighter bow.

Would a 50 pound Dryad, that shoots a 550 grain arrow 171 fps, be enough to hunt elk?

[Montanawidower]

Pavan,

Most likely.   But, If you are asking for a recommendation... Shoot a bow that shoots 600-700 grains that fast.  

I shoot a toelke lynx 61 # @29 that shoots a 655 grain arrow 175 fps tipped with a two blade bh.   I have passed through the last three bull elk .... But Barely!   Thus my heartfelt words of caution.

Every bull I have seen shot with a trad bow has run off with the arrow still in them.   I felt like I had really done something when 3 or 4 seasons ago my arrow was merely protruding mostly on the opposite side!   Maybe we just suck?  

Here is my concern.... These are all bulls shot with 55# plus bows.   We have used everything from 2,3,4 blades, wood ,aluminum and carbon,  even a grizzly stick one year.   We have shot bear recurves, black widow recurves and long bows, a hill style longbow,   Several rf/df custom bows..  Its been iffy enough that one of my partners gave up and went back to his compound.

 The point is , we have been working hard at the penetration game.   I think people see guys like Fred eichler blow through everything and forget his crazy long draw length packs an extra punch.


Ps.. My set up Zips through deer and antelope like warm butter.... But elk are just plain arrow stoppers in my experience.  With all due respect, the guys arguing esoteric mathematics that have not actually killed elk are maybe leading some astray.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

elk are just plain arrow stoppers in my experience. With all due respect, the guys arguing esoteric mathematics that have not actually killed elk are maybe leading some astray.

This is spot on.... In the last 20 years we've hung about 70 Roosevelt elk in our camp with various archery gear. 12 of these i took myself. I won't even talk about the number that were not recovered, but there were quite a few lost with text book shots right behind the shoulder with bows over 55#.

You owe it to the animals you hunt to use the most powerful bow you can shoot accurately. If you can't handle the right equipment,  go elk hunting with your camera.

I know a fellow that shot two or three with a 51@26 Schulz longbow, using Schulz broadheads. He told me that if he could pull what I was pulling at the time, he would be using a heavier bow for elk. I am getting older and more vulnerable to injury, and I am not going to grow longer arms. If I go elk hunting next year, my 60@26 Robertson with Grizzly tipped Alaskan graphites are going to have to be it. I am certain the numbers will fall short, but that is the best penetrating package I have right now.

[gringol]

Ive  seen a couple treadways in action, and they looked pretty fast to the eye.  They looked faster than the other bows being shot that day.  You may have a bow that is as fast as you say, but I learned a while back to be wary of large speed numbers posted on the internet.

Your original post suggests you are concerned that you dont have enough bow for the job.  If thats the case, dont use it.  42# is awful light for a young guy....

[md126]

I'm not saying speed doesn't matter because it does....to a certain extent. I don't need a chronograph though to tell me when a bows performance is acceptable. I can tell that just by shooting it. From a scientific/experimental point of view for a bowyer chronographs can be useful and interesting I suppose but for practical purposes it's splitting hairs. A bow that shoots 180fps is no less effective than one that shoots 190fps, and I'll bet most people couldn't tell the difference without a chronograph anyway. Most, if not all, of the top bows today shoot close to one another at hunting ranges.

To the ORIGINAL question, I personally wouldn't hunt elk w/ a 42# bow, not even a 42# compound. I'd feel more comfortable at 55# +

[Michael Arnette]

The man who introduced me to bow hunting killed over a dozen elk with the same set up. He never lost one! He did only use two blade heads and took only high percentage shots. He also only drew about 26" and shot wood arrows. He said he only had one fail to pass through.
He also took two buffalo with the same set up! Both were pass throughs and hit ribs.
That being said, I would not do it as I can shoot heavier weights well and prefer to have that extra confidence.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If you are asking for a recommendation... Shoot a bow that shoots 600-700 grains that fast.


i just tested a bow on a shooting machine yesterday that shoots a 743 grain arrow at 10.10 gpp 191 FPS... You think this would get er done bro?

The same bow shoots a 817 grain arrow 11.11 gpp at 184 fps.

29" draw length 73.52#'s@29"  This thing is a tank killer.  

[Prairie Drifter]

Originally posted by Michael Arnette:
The man who introduced me to bow hunting killed over a dozen elk with the same set up. He never lost one! He did only use two blade heads and took only high percentage shots. He also only drew about 26" and shot wood arrows. He said he only had one fail to pass through.
He also took two buffalo with the same set up! Both were pass throughs and hit ribs.
That being said, I would not do it as I can shoot heavier weights well and prefer to have that extra confidence.

So what poundage did he shoot?

I think he is referring to the Treadway. I know the Schulz boys did pretty well with bows in the 50s range with less than 28" draws.  One thing Deadpool did say was that his treadway looked as fast or faster than the other bow. Regardless of the numbers, it may have been quicker.  I have had a number of people not believe the penetration that my wife gets with her under 40 pound bows at her draw. I can say this, it is all in the arrow. A 430 grain arrow with a Hunter Head, Grizzly, or shaving sharp Zwickey that is flying dead straight when it hits, trumps everything when it comes to deer.  I have seen guys with bigger draws and more weight, that don't have the same arrow flight when they shoot at game as when they shoot at targets,  something changes in how they shoot.  The result is that they do not get as much penetration.  One fellow said that he had never gotten a pass through and had never seen anybody with a trad bow who did.  When I saw the arrow flight him and his buddies were getting and their sloppy short of anchor releases, I understood his results.  A strong shot, with a properly fitted arrow from a lighter bow,  will always out perform a sloppy, struggled shot from a heavy bow.

[Bjorn]

David Petersen in his book 'A Man Made of Elk' says a 650 gn arrow traveling at 155 fps if a good minimum.