why are reflex bows less forgiving?

[Zradix]

I've heard time and time again that longbows with reflex limbs are less forgiving....the more reflex the less forgiving....the farther the tips are in front of the grip when unstrung the less forgiving...
...can anyone tell me why?

Thank you

[Orion]

One reason is that most deflex/reflex bows, particularly those with extreme reflex tend to be shorter with thinner wider limbs, vis a vis a Hill style bow, and thus more susceptible to bow and string string torque. In truth, though, the differences are rather small, not noticeable by the average shooter, IMO.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Zradix:
I've heard time and time again that longbows with reflex limbs are less forgiving....the more reflex the less forgiving....the farther the tips are in front of the grip when unstrung the less forgiving...
...can anyone tell me why?

Thank you

It's a false statement.... Period...You cannot stereotype bows anymore than to can stereotype people bro. The shape of a bow unstrung is meaningless. It's where the limbs are bending that matters.

Now the grip placement in direct proportion to the limbs location fore or aft, is another story... if you have the grip forward of the limbs, or in line with the limbs vs a reflexed grip, consistent hand placement is much more critical because any torque is amplified in a reflexed grip location..


The old school attitude that long bows are more forgiving than short bows is not really true either. The folks that make these claims haven't ever spent any time with a well designed, well balanced R/D long bow.

[JRY309]

I agree with Orion.

[cyred4d]

This is a link that may help explain why. It talks about bow design of recurves and longbows.

 http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...38594407830710

[Zradix]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I understand what you're saying about grip forward vs grip reflex Kirk. That's easy to replicate with simple experiments.

I tend to think you're both right.

I just can't wrap my head around WHY a reflex limb would make it less forgiving either....I mean when comparing a stable and well designed bow with more or less reflex in the limbs.

Thank you

[Zradix]

Cyred4d..

That link doesn't work for me buddy.
I'd like to give it a look

[nineworlds9]

What Kirk said

[Sixby]

Kirk times 2. How the limbs bend and stability is due to a lot of things besides deflex unstrung. What matters is fit, design, tapers, brace stability all of which determine how the bow shoots.
I believe what we can say is that if you build two different designs , say a D and R and a straight or String follow the exact same way then the longbow will inheriently be more stable than the D and R. However we can and do build bows today that are both Stable and Fast.

God bless, Steve

[cyred4d]

Sorry about that. I did not realize it was a tiny url.

Try this.

 http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~archery/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Fundamentals-of-the-Design-of-Olympic-Recurve-Bows.pdf

[David Mitchell]

I do not agree with the premise. Not true in my experience and I own and shoot all sorts of bows.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I just can't wrap my head around WHY a reflex limb would make it less forgiving either....I mean when comparing a stable and well designed bow with more or less reflex in the limbs.


Quit trying bro.... reflex in a limb doesn't make it less forgiving.... period.

Where you are going to run into guys that decline to accept that fact, and it is a fact, not an opinion, is from guys that are dyed in the wool Hill style long bow shooters that try to shoot an R/D long bow using the same type grip technique.....

 Shooting a straight grip with a very low brace height requires learning how to "grip the bow" just right with your knuckles rotated forward a bit more for arm clearance and are typically balanced for heeling down more so than most R/D long bows are today......

So for these guys that love the Hill bows, and lord knows there are a bunch of them.... The longer straight bows are naturally going to feel a lot more forgiving. Especially the guys with longer draw lengths....

If you shot both kinds of bows with an open hand neither one would have a torque issue, but the Hill style would kick you like a mule shooting open handed. They are not designed to be shot that way..... So it's not that one bow is more forgiving or not, it's matching your shooting style to the right bow, or shifting your grip around until you find out what she likes....

[Zradix]

THANK YOU!

Really great explanation there Kirk.

Thanks for the link cyred4d. interesting reading there too.

I appreciate the help guys.
   

[Kris]

Define forgiving?

I'm not new at this either (30 plus years traditional).  This is one of claims everyone likes to make.  I tend to agree with Kirkll.

Forgiving or not you can learn to shoot any bow as accurately as you are capable of IMO.

Enjoy the process and learn from your efforts.

Kris

[Tajue17]

just because I shoot every bow perfect doesn't mean they are all easy to shoot,, seriously I don't want rumors making it back to my ole lady that my bows are all easier to shoot than I tell her they are!

[olddogrib]

Okay, somebody straighten me out here.  
What constitutes reflex/deflex in limbs? I've always thought of those terms as they relate to riser design, with a reflexed riser having the limbs butts more forward-mounted, over or even in front of the bow hand and a deflexed riser having the limbs attaching more rearward, behind the bow hand.  If this analogy is "all wet", just tell me, my wife does it all the time, lol.  But with that analogy the reflexed riser limbs would have a power stroke that would be(for lack of a better term)more linearly forward compared to a deflexed that would be comparatively more up and down.  I'm thinking of similarity to the recent "horizontal limb" technology of wheelie bows where the limb movement is now almost entirely up and down, but on a much, much smaller scale. And I know this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems like it would be further corroborated by the limb preload at brace, which I would think would be greater with the reflexed riser design.  Thanks Kirk and Sixby, that's why you guys that build 'em need to enlighten us dummies that shoot 'em!

[Brianlocal3]

Just for clarification on the grip statement. Straightlimbed , straight grip longbows DO NOT HAVE to be gripped a certain way. They are about all I shoot anymore but I grip my superkodiak, my hybrids , my compound (when I still had it) and my mild r/d bows the exact same.  Naturally a higher wrist grip will naturally adjust your wrist a bit compared to a straight grip and same with a medium grip but there is no gross difference in how I grip them,
Arne moe demonstrated this perfectly.

[Orion]

Go back and read the link that's cred4d posted.  That's math and science, not opinion.  Analysis is primarily with recurves, but shows geometrically why and how longer bows are more forgiving than shorter bows, and why thinner,stacked lamination limbs on longbows are more forgiving, ie, tolerant of sideways torque on the string than flatter, wider recurve limbs.  Sure design has a lot to do with it, and one can do a lot with design and materials to make the more radical designs more forgiving. And a person's shooting experience and ability play into it as well as to whether it's even perceived or not.  And, as I noted above, the differences are more theoretical, than practical.  Most shooters probably can't tell the difference.  But there is a difference, all other things being equal, as Sixby notes.

I'm not new to this game either.  I've been shooting sticks for nearly 60 years, and built a lot of selfbows and glass laminated bows in the past.  I shoot highly r/d longbows, mild r/d longbows, Hill style longbows, selfbows and recurves. My current preference is the extreme r/d longbow. It's as smooth to draw as a hill style, probably smoother, certainly a lot faster, but not as forgiving of my shooting faults as a Hill.

[Brianlocal3]

Oh, and to address the actuall question, I agree with Kirk and the rest, I feel a well designed r/d bow is no less forgiving that anything else. I've had quite a few and they were all very very user friendly.

[30coupe]

Originally posted by olddogrib:
Okay, somebody straighten me out here.  
What constitutes reflex/deflex in limbs? I've always thought of those terms as they relate to riser design, with a reflexed riser having the limbs butts more forward-mounted, over or even in front of the bow hand and a deflexed riser having the limbs attaching more rearward, behind the bow hand.  If this analogy is "all wet", just tell me, my wife does it all the time, lol.  But with that analogy the reflexed riser limbs would have a power stroke that would be(for lack of a better term)more linearly forward compared to a deflexed that would be comparatively more up and down.  I'm thinking of similarity to the recent "horizontal limb" technology of wheelie bows where the limb movement is now almost entirely up and down, but on a much, much smaller scale. And I know this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems like it would be further corroborated by the limb preload at brace, which I would think would be greater with the reflexed riser design.  Thanks Kirk and Sixby, that's why you guys that build 'em need to enlighten us dummies that shoot 'em!

Here is a r/d longbow...my Kanati.

Unstrung:

 

...and strung:

 

By the way, it is VERY forgiving! And as Kirk said, that is a FACT!