Endless VS Flemish

[4dogs]

I was just reading some information that Rob has posted about Harrison longbows, instructions from the bowyer on care of his bows. He states his bows come with an endless loop string and warrante would be void if a flemish twist string was used. That an endless loop string is much better at transfering energy to the arrow etc... How do you guys think the two compare? Can you get a little more performance out an endless loop?

[nineworlds9]

Warranty would be void??  Seriously?  The mantra is that endless gain a few fps speed at cost of increased noise, but you'll get guys arguing back and forth about that.  I've shot both didnt notice much difference but my preference is Flemish w/padded loops.  Skinny Flemish largely solve the speed difference issues I think.  Maybe he does the warranty thing cause of the belief that an endless is stronger size proportionally?  Weird.

[Paul_R]

Is there such a thing as a skinny endless string? Just curious.

[JRY309]

I have made some skinny endless strings,I just added extra strands to the end before serving it.I just run some extra string around the end posts and then serve and cut those strands off.I had a Harrison HSS awhile back,I shot both a flemish twist and endless on it.Usally an endless string is alittle noiser then a padded loop flemish.I made up an endless out of Angel Majesty a 12 strand and it was as quiet as the flemish twist on it.I had thought he recommended an endless for the performance aspect,didn't hear about it voiding the warranty?

[4dogs]

Rob has it posted in the How To forum, first subject.....maybe Im reading it wrong, take a look.

[Todd Cook]

Flemish are cool, endless are ugly  

[Chromebuck]

Originally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly      

Thats funny right there!  My trad mentor says the same thing.

That instructional pamplet for Harrison bows is poorly written and seems incomplete transitioning from the first to second paragragh on Bow Strings, but as you stated it is there.  Isn't there a "y" in bowyer?  
   

Kirk Lavender please comment...

  Link to Harrison pamplet  

~CB

[dbd870]

Originally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly    

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK Keith i'll bite.... The endless loop basically has how many ever stands you want that run straight through the loop with no twist, and is padded to desired thickness witch usually runs 12-16 strands depending on material used.

I'll tell you why some bowyers get nervous about Flemish twist strings is because if they are twisted up too much they can cause limb twist in some cases.

If a guy doesn't pay attention to exactly how the string is laying on the tip of the bow, it can easily get off center with a Flemish string that is twisted up pretty tight. An endless loop is typically made with very few twists per inch.

i've had brand new bows that i knew were dead straight act like they had some limb tracking issues by twisting a string up too tight before. i took the same string and flipped it 180 degees on the loop, and it was fine....

Most archers i know check how their strings are laying out closely every time they string it up.

So the bottom line is... i love Flemish strings myself. but you gotta pay attention to what you are doing, and make sure you've got a good even twist to the string without over twisting them, and make damn sure they are laying in the string notches evenly.

Typically you'll never have that problem with an endless loop string.

there's .02 cents worth.

[David Mitchell]

One well known bowyer and PAA instructor remarked to me one day that you never see Olympic archers shooting Flemish twist strings and that must mean they feel they are less accurate than Flemish twist.

[Dave Worden]

Originally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly    

.  If you want endless and like the look of Flemish, then make your endless with two colors, twist it (which you should always do anyhow) and, voila, you have an endless that looks like a Flemish.  Personally, I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference which you use.  In the real world, even if there is a measurable difference in speed, noise, etc., at 15-20 yards, is it a REAL difference?

[Bill Carlsen]

Endless strings are much easier to make and to keep making consistently for me. If you are a hunter, like me, I use Bow Hush type silencers on the string so all that shows is the served loop. Over many years of shooting I think that endless strings have a slight speed/accuracy advantage. But an average archer/bowhunter would not notice. Either way, a poorly made string, regardless of its type, is a poor string (read what KIrkill said) and a good string is a very good thing to have on your bow. By the way, I have never seen a hair's width of difference in silencing either type of string. Flemish strings tend to be quieter simply because the ones I have seen typically have more strands, are therefore heavier and quieter.

[Bladepeek]

I read that pamphlet in the link. I'm not familiar with the bows, but imagine they are excellent. If I were the bowyer, though,I would give some serious thought to getting a high school kid to re-write it for me. The old saying about how "You only get one chance to make a good first impression" is doubly true in marketing. I'd be more than a little embarrassed having someone read those instructions if they were mine.

And the warranty being void if a Flemish twist string is used, and advising against using a bow stringer of any kind?????????????

[Thumper Dunker]

Originally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly    

Ditto  

[Thumper Dunker]

Originally posted by Bladepeek:
I read that pamphlet in the link. I'm not familiar with the bows, but imagine they are excellent. If I were the bowyer, though,I would give some serious thought to getting a high school kid to re-write it for me. The old saying about how "You only get one chance to make a good first impression" is doubly true in marketing. I'd be more than a little embarrassed having someone read those instructions if they were mine.

And the warranty being void if a Flemish twist string is used, and advising against using a bow stringer of any kind?????????????

+2

[Chromebuck]

Originally posted by Thumper Dunker:
 

Originally posted by Bladepeek:
I read that pamphlet in the link. I'm not familiar with the bows, but imagine they are excellent. If I were the bowyer, though,I would give some serious thought to getting a high school kid to re-write it for me. The old saying about how "You only get one chance to make a good first impression" is doubly true in marketing. I'd be more than a little embarrassed having someone read those instructions if they were mine.

And the warranty being void if a Flemish twist string is used, and advising against using a bow stringer of any kind?????????????

+2 [/b]

Ron & Tim,

Do a search on Harrison bows.  They are some of the finest looking bows out there and retain significant value.  Known for their beefy straight grips, beautiful horn overlays and being real shooters.  Usually over $1,000 used.

Thanks for coming through brother Kirk!  Never thought you could put enough twist in a Flemish to tweek a limb tip.  Always learning great stuff on this site.

I have witnessed people twist strings that are slightly too long for their bow to make them fit. Perhaps that isn't such a good idea...

 

[Bladepeek]

Chromebuck, I never criticized the bows. I have looked up a few and read the interview with Jack Harrison. I understand Jim Fisk is now making the bows and probably maintaining the artistic design and quality of Jack's production. His longbow actually sounds remarkably like my Border Griffon GL and I'm very impressed with that bow.

It was the poor quality brochure I criticized and I still question the logic of discouraging bow stringers and as was stated earlier, a poor string is a poor string and a good string - Flemish twist or endless loop - is a good string.

[Chromebuck]

Ron, It's all good and we are on the same page.  I was purely going by the second sentence in your post.  You are apparently as familiar as I  with these bows.  

For a bow of the caliber that Jack was putting out you'd think the brochure might have been run by someone for proofreading for sure.

~CB

[LBR]

In the original warranty, and in his book (I have a copy), Harrison had a bit to say about the superiority of endless vs. flemish.  He not only voided the warranty if you used flemish, he voided it if you used polyester ("dacron").

To put it mildly,  I disagree with what he said.  That stuff was plain off the wall.

Properly made, there's little difference in performance, if any.  Endless is usually noisier, especially on a recurve, but either one will do the job just fine.

Never saw a string twist a limb either.  Heard that claim made about a 72# longbow once, but it was pure bunk (I held and shot the bow).  

I have seen folks shooting strings that had so much twist they coiled up when the bow was unstrung.  I suppose if the draw weight was light enough and/or the limbs...well, the only word I can think of is flimsy...flimsy enough, and the string was twisted way beyond what a normal shooter would use, maybe it could.  

You can twist an endless just like you can twist a flemish though--in either case, that would be putting the wrong length string on a bow--can't blame the string for user error.

Chad

[katman]

I hoped you would chime in Chad, thanks. Brother Kirk, I believe, was saying if the string has a LOT of twists and you were not careful when stringing the bow the loop can sit at an angle in the limb tip and not run down the center of the limb, and may induce a limb twist, especially in a recurve, that sounds plausible. So user error on a couple of counts and possibly a poorly designed bow.