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Author Topic: Now I am confused  (Read 850 times)

Offline Thumper Dunker

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2013, 11:46:00 AM »
I do not think animals really care how fast the arrow goes through them. bowfanatik  I think your set up is good go hunting.
You can hop but you can't hide.
If it was not for rabbits I would never get a buck.
Yip yipahooooo yipyipyip.

Offline bowfanatik

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2013, 01:24:00 PM »
my setup is very very good , i post this because .....if is true that light arrow have same penetration as heavy , well in that case i will have more speed ! But hrono say that , i  already have plenty of speed so i am ok . In past 3 years i learned how to tune my bow , so i am fine thanks guys . But all this is interesting to read
PerunH 60"

Shoot a lot and keep it simple

Offline ChuckC

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2013, 03:22:00 PM »
Most of us hunt for game that are fairly easy to shoot thru, under normal (good) circumstances, so lighter or heavier may be a moot point, especially with heavier bows.

Heavier / larger game take more to penetrate. What that number is is important at that time (when hunting bigger / tougher game), but not as much for hunting deer or small game.

Ashby's tests, while not necessarily perfect, used a lot more shot numbers and used broadheads and "critter matrix", that is, the stuff we shoot thru. I have faith in what those tests show.  But, what is it that they show ?

Sorry to all those that do their own testing, but the next time I go phone book hunting, or ballistic gel hunting, or plywood hunting I will look up your results.  

Shoot what you want, tune it right so they fly well, and don't worry so much about it.

ChuckC

Offline Skinnybill

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2013, 11:48:00 PM »
I don't really worry about heavy or light...I tune my arrows and use whichever shoots the best. But since we are discussing this, I thought I would throw this in for something to think about. I didn't write this so I have no argument either way.  Here ya go:

What do an arrow and a missile have in common? The answer lies in "spinning mass" The greater the mass the greater the angular inertia.

To compensate for yaw, pitch and roll a missile's orientation with respect to external co-ordinates is maintained by a gyroscope. Instead of tipping over it moves forward in a circular motion, in a fixed direction given by its spin axis.

Rotational Inertia is the rotational counterpart of Newton's First Law of motion, "An object will continue to spin in a given direction unless acted upon by an external unbalanced torque."

In a missile, if an unbalanced force is applied the gyro will begin to move the missile at right angles to the force. This motion is called precession.

When a football flies through the air its natural tendency is to tumble (rotate end over end) icreasing air resistance.

If the thrower puts spin on the ball (hence giving the ball angular momentum) the ball behaves much like a missile with a gyro and an arrow with feathers does that even better, giving it spin, hence keeping its point axis always in the direction of motion, reducing resistance and increasing the distance travelled.

Hence, the Turks shooting toothpicks have never been equalled pound for pound.

In an arrow this angular momentum caused by spin pushed by the Ek of the bow is critical in its path through the atmosphere and the deer's flesh.

A heavy arrow has greater angular inertia, therefore requiring greater Ek from the bow. It follows then that a lighter arrow with the same Ek, out of the same bow will have a much higher angular momentum and hence will travel farther and straighter.

It also follows that the use of large feathers create a tremendous amount of drag and this creates an even greater increase in angular inertia. Thus requiring heavy poundage to create equivalent forward motion.

The earth spinning on its axis acts much like a 'gyro'. The point, N-axis always aims at Polaris, inspite of the much heavier gravitational pull of the Sun, the moon and all the other celestial bodies in the universe. Unlike very stiff carbon shafts the slight precession of the earth is caused by the unequal distribution of mass.

A heavy arrow will hit with a higher force but much more Ek is necessary to drive its rotational momemtum. Whereas, a very LIGHT STIFF arrow with equal Ek will fly better, do to its much higher angular momentum and can get the job done better with even less poundage. Not to mention the fact that less poundage equates to a better bowman. As long as we are not hunting Tyrannosaurs.

Arrows are not bullets and do not kill by expansion and crushing. It takes very little force for a two blade titanium broadhead with molecularly sharp edges to go through flesh.

In Physics this problem requires many and varied formulae to prove, some 18 altogether.

The basic one's being.

Ek = 1/2mXvsquared (linear) Ek(rotational) = 1/2I(w)squared (angular)

Offline LB_hntr

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2013, 01:21:00 AM »
Shoot what ever gives you the most confidence.
I like a heavy arrow 750 grains out of a 63# longbow. I like how quiet it is. i love the penetration i get and most important i love how i can see my slow moving arrows in flight and always know exactly where i hit the animals.

one thing i did notice about the part 2 video. he shoots the heavy arrows at the outter edges of the balistic gel and you can see the whole chunck move and absorb energy. then he shoots the kight arrow dead center and the balistic gel doesnt move at all and doesnt rob any energy from the light arrow.
  Its good that there are people that like all set ups. For me I will most definetly be sticking with my heavy set up. been shooting it for alot of years and love it.

Offline Skinnybill

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2013, 10:30:00 AM »
All 3 of those arrows will kill anything on this continent period.  I don't even know how much my arrows weigh. I paper tune my arrows with different weight tips and use whichever shoots the best.  I've used wood...pass thru...carbon...pass thru...aluminum...pass thru.  Never weighed any of them.

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2013, 11:17:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bowfanatik:
 i post this because .....if is true that light arrow have same penetration as heavy
That will only be true if you gain enough speed to make up the difference! In his video he went from 188fps to 214fps to get equal penetration from the light arrow.

Bisch

Offline RecurveRookie

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2013, 11:48:00 AM »
Dr. Ashby did LOTS of testing on REAL ANIMALS.  The defense rests.  It's a free country, he should shoot whatever setup he thinks is best.
Maddog Mountaineer 57# and Prairie Predator 52# Wow!, Samick Sage 35 - 60#,  I'm learning.

Offline coaster500

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2013, 11:53:00 AM »
"184 fps is fast for a 660 gr hunting arrow"

Man I wish I had the shoulders for that set up....  Don't know of much that could stand up to that!!!
The American system of democracy will prevail until that moment when politicians discover that they can bribe the electorate with their own money

Offline Butch Speer

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2013, 02:41:00 PM »
Which hits hardest, a baseball thrown as hard as possible or a tennis ball thrown  hard possible?
God Bless

Butch the Yard Gnome

67 Bear Kodiak Hunter 58" 48@28
73 Bear Grizzly 58" 47@ 28
74 Bear Kodiak Hunter 45@28
Shakespeare Necedah 58" 45@28

Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much.
- Erastus Wiman

Offline tracker12

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2013, 02:54:00 PM »
That guy also uses a mechanical Broadhead out of his traditional bow.  I'll stick with a heavy arrow and fixed blade Broadhead.
T ZZZZ

Offline bamboo

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2013, 07:01:00 PM »
"The earth spinning on its axis acts much like a 'gyro'. The point, N-axis always aims at Polaris, inspite of the much heavier gravitational pull of the Sun, the moon and all the other celestial bodies in the universe. Unlike very stiff carbon shafts the slight precession of the earth is caused by the unequal distribution of mass. "

   HOLY CROW!!!   pull up yer boots!!!LOL!!!
WOW!!that is some heavy stuff!!right there!!
Mike

Offline Tajue17

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2013, 07:38:00 AM »
...
"Us vs Them"

Offline Tajue17

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2013, 07:39:00 AM »
:deadhorse:
"Us vs Them"

Offline gringol

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2013, 07:52:00 AM »
Sometimes it's best to ignore the internet.  This post being the exception.   :)

Offline Skinnybill

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2013, 10:05:00 AM »
No offense Butch but comparing a tennis ball and baseball is like comparing an apple to an orange.  For one, a tennis ball is hollow.

I agree  bamboo, that is some heavy stuff haha.  Just something to think about..

What I have noticed though, is that many trad shooters are very narrow minded when it comes to this subject.  I've never seen a post in which someone is advocating heavy arrows and people start saying "lights the only way to go...blah blah blah". I give the guy credit.  There are the "you need 800gr arrows to kill a whitetail" which is absolutely ridiculous. Both sides have good arguments supporting their stance.  I guess I'm in the middle. Your bow will tell you what works best. I shoot 30" Carbon Tech Panthers with 175gr heads.  I use that weight head because that's what puts a perfect hole in the paper. If 125 gr was the best, then I'd be using that.  Your bow will talk to you and let you know what it likes:)

Offline Sam McMichael

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2013, 10:49:00 AM »
Skinnybill makes a good point when he says the bow will tell you what it likes. Experiment till you find the best combination of accuracy and quietness, then don't worry about those that say your arrow is either too light or too heavy. If it is tuned well and the broad head is sharp, you  can kill whatever you chose to hunt.
Sam

Offline LB_hntr

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2013, 11:09:00 AM »
I think its great that people question and test things to prove it for them selves. this leads to new discoveries, etc. I also think its true that you can kill animals with light or heavy arrows.

But as mentioned we use many analogies to simplify this for people that ask about heavy arrows.
 like the tennis ball/baseball.
 I use the analogy of crashing a corvette into a brick wall at 40mph and you have a pile of fiberglass, crash a dump truck into a brick wall at 5 mph and you have a pile of bricks.
 Imo there is a reason that wrecking balls are not made out of aluminum, ice spuds are heavy, jackhammers, sledge hammers, etc.
And if my wife is going to hit me in the head with a pan id rather her hit me with a light frying pan swung fast than a cast iron one swung a little slower.
Most houses are built now with hollow indoor doors to prevent the injuries that happen with solid heavy doors getting closed on kids fingers.
 A heavy fishing lure cast farther than a light one.
why my quad with a snowplow hitting my deep sow drive way at 30 mph only gets 50 feet into it before I cant plow any more but my buddys side by side can crawl thru my whole 225 foot drive way in the same snow.
Why when I used to do a test in ibep classes I leaned a 3d target against a tree and shot a not loaded up 3555 gold tip at 350 grains it didn't move but them shot it with my 750 grain stuffed 3555 and the target would always bounce off the tree and fall over forward.
 
I like heavy better. everyday life has shown me it just hits harder. my opinion anyway.

Offline bamboo

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2013, 12:26:00 PM »
Original Topic: Now I am confused
Mike

Offline ghoster808

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Re: Now I am confused
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2013, 12:57:00 PM »
Seems to me that if you go the light/fast route you better make sure the bow and arrow combination is tuned to the nth and you are getting dartlike bare shaft flight.
"Till The Wheels Fall Off"

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