Paper Tuning vs. Archers Paradox?

[Old Gobbler 1]

Super-slow motion video reveals an incredible amount of arrow bending and arching after release better known as "archer`s paradox". My question is: How can we expect to get an accurate "paper- tune" with so much arrow movement, yards after the arrow has left the shelf?

[jsweka]

Hmmmm...Good question.

Another one I've always had (not to infringe on your thread and question) is how is the amount of cant one typically shoots with accounted for when paper tuning?  For example, if you held a bow perfectly vertical and saw tail left on paper, wouldn't you see tail high and left with a cant?

I don't paper tune.  Bare shaft and eyeball it.

[ChuckC]

Make it even weirder.

After about 4 feet the arrow starts to spin if you have helical fletching of any degree.

If your nock point is too high or low you get porpoising, if you have a bad release or wrong spine you get fish tailing, but if that arrow starts spinning, does the porpoise or fishtail spin too ?

How can you tell which it is if it is spinning ?

ChuckC

[Prairie Drifter]

Originally posted by jsweka:
Hmmmm...Good question.

Another one I've always had (not to infringe on your thread and question) is how is the amount of cant one typically shoots with accounted for when paper tuning?  For example, if you held a bow perfectly vertical and saw tail left on paper, wouldn't you see tail high and left with a cant?

Yep, That's why I hold the bow vertical when I tune.

[snapper1d]

Up close paper tuning can show you how bad your spine and nock point is off but after your arrow is out a little ways the arrow movement has settled down somewhat.I like bare shafting to see how my arrow performs and adjust it from there.Some will argue that there is no need to bare shaft wood arrows.If they were to strip the feathers from their shafts and see them fly wildly they would be surprised.Fletchings can correct some problems of flight but when your arrow comes off your bow badly the first thing you are already off target.Its the same with a bad release you are already off target when your arrow comes off your bow.

[Bowwild]

6 AND 12 feet to paper-tune for me. Then broadheads to check everything at 15-20 yards. I've used this successfully with all kinds of bows for a very long time.

Of course I select shafts and terminal tackle that should work before I shoot the arrow.

[NBK]

I would assume that the tight, quick oscillations seen in slow motion video denotes the "water moccasin" flight of a better tuned arrow that stabilizes quickly, while a less tuned shaft would have larger oscillations requiring more time therefore greater distance covered and show better on paper.  The caveat being finding the correct distance assuming the closer the better.  On MBB video, rod Jenkins paper tunes about three feet from the bow.  Just a theory.

Originally posted by Bowwild:
6 AND 12 feet to paper-tune for me. Then broadheads to check everything at 15-20 yards. I've used this successfully with all kinds of bows for a very long time.

Of course I select shafts and terminal tackle that should work before I shoot the arrow.

That is pretty much exactly what I do^^^.

Bisch

[old_goat2]

Originally posted by jsweka:
 I don't paper tune.  Bare shaft and eyeball it.

This is how I do it and just about everybody I know around here does it. I then follow it up by shooting broadheads which will confirm your results. Works well to have a second set of eyes preferably behind you and on a slightly higher viewing plane to watch your arrow flight so you can concentrate on proper form and not peeking at the arrow

[Easykeeper]

Some swear by paper tuning, some don't.  I'm in the second camp and haven't used paper for years.  I go right to bare shaft tuning.

[NBK]

For those that don't like to paper tune, what do you do about wood arrows?  I've heard that bareshafting wood can result in some broken shafts.

[Brock]

yep can break shafts when bareshafting with wood....as they are oscillating when they hit target.

I work up what is in general area of spine using static charts and Stu's Calculator and opt for slightly weaker than I expect...that way if wrong I can shorten arrow a 1/4" at a time until it flies right.....

I build the arrows and shoot them...short range first and then long range (40 yds for me).  if there is no wind and they fly where I am aiming with the only discrepancy being my release or hold...then I dont worry too much.

I dont stress FPS or every wiggle as much as quite a few here and other forums....I personally dont think our traditional bows are as picky and sensitive to EXACT arrow characteristics as many claim...Agree the compound (modern) bow requires this level as all the rests and such make tuning a requirement when shooting short, small diameter, small vanes with release at long distances on a very light string at high speeds....but for our traditional bows I dont buy it.

I have a pretty good idea what should work based on bow, arrow, etc....and go stiffer or weaker based on a couple shooting sessions.  I choose to not complicate my love of archery and bowhunting with traditional or selfbows....and dont shoot over 20 yards...and am fine with that limitation.

[Dave Worden]

I don't understand bare shaft tuning.  If you're never going to shoot an unfletched arrow, why tune without feathers.  Seems to me like you should just tune with fletched arrows.  If THEY fly right who cares what happens with other combinations (no fletch, heavier tip, longer arrow, etc.)?

[snapper1d]

If you bare shaft and get it flying right your feathers will only make it fly better.If your shaft spine is wrong and it comes off your bow wildly without feathers it will still come off your bow wildly with feathers at first till the feathers start correcting its path but it going in the wrong direction before its corrected.As far as bare shafting wood shafts and them breaking.If you start up close bare shafting your shaft is not going to it the target as bad as it would as when you are at a distance.Bare shaft close and start adjusting your shaft then start backing up and adjust till it flys good.

[creekwood]

Originally posted by Dave Worden:
If you're never going to shoot an unfletched arrow, why tune without feathers.

The more your fletchings have to work to correct an incorrect spine, the faster the arrow will slow down in flight resulting in degraded performance.  I like to think that shooting an untuned arrow is like tying an anchor to it.  Of course, you could get lucky and maybe your arrow is perfect for you and your bow.  If you are a gambler, then maybe this is for you.    

[NBK]

Brock, I like your style.

[reddogge]

Bare shaft tuning is very helpful and when you do it enough it becomes very easy to do. It's especially beneficial when you step outside the box with longer shaft, heavier or lighter shafts, point weights to match new broadheads, etc. I don't do paper tune though.

It's similar to why we tune the bow to be the quietest it can be before adding silencers and other silencing things to it.

[snapper1d]

Creekwood you got it right.If you dont care about where your arrows hit then just dont tune.If you want the very best in accuracy then tune them.If your arrows are not the exact same then none will hit in the same spot even if you shoot the exact same way perfectly on each arrow.I guess I am a perfectionist and I want everything to be perfect.If you are not a good shooter then tuning your arrows will make a big difference to you.It made one big gigantic difference to my shooting after I learned bare shaft and paper tuning.

[Bowwild]

I'm with snapper2d.  If I miss I want it to be me, not my equipment. I'm sure it would drive me crazy wondering if my equipment was going to let  me down.

I remember a 2bl 20 gauge with a bad firing pin. That gun decided when it would fire. Just about ruined  me in a single dove hunt!

I also recall an outfit I hunted mulies with in 1977. My arrows planed terrible (I didn't know about tuning then). I thought it was the broadhead's fault. I like to think there would be a different outcome on a certain mule deer buck at treeline near Buffalo Park (above Steamboat Springs) had I been an arrow tuner back then.

[Easykeeper]

It's important to me to have things right with my gear, I don't really care what others do.  Besides, my way is certainly not the only way to get a tuned bow.  That said, once you get the hang of it bare shaft tuning it's so easy that it...well it's easy.  

I'm assuming we agree that the point of fletching is to correct an improper balance between spine, shaft length, point weight, characteristics of the bow, and the shooters form. Tuning with bare shafts balances the system almost completely, add feathers and you get a much more stable and forgiving system, especially when you stick a broadhead on the front.  No doubt it's more difficult to do with woodies, but then I remember I used to shoot all my woodies and select the ones that consistently shot the best with broadheads and hit the same spot as my field points.  Same goal, much less efficient process.  Much as I love wooden arrows, they are not as consistent and don't lend themselves as well to precise tuning as carbon or aluminum, at least not in my experience.  A bit more trial and error with woodies, but then woodies are a labor of love anyway.