Michigan deer

[aim small...release]

nice work happy new year!

[gvdocholiday]

Captured all in High Def as well. Deer was no more than 18' away and I was only 10' up in a tree.  Standing in the crotch of a big old oak.  I've shot a lot of deer and cut the heart...but this deer was my first through and through heart shot.  Nice perfect hole right through the heart and she expired 60yds away also on film.  This is only my second deer with a trad bow....likewise shooting a doe last year on public land in early season.  That was a 2 mile drag through the dunes...not fun.

[aim small...release]

do you have the video posted anywhere?

[gvdocholiday]

Can't show it yet.  Not until after it airs on TV this summer.

[Bonebuster]

There is the option to purchase one archery license, and then you can shoot any buck.

I get a little surprised at how many people take the figures the DNR puts forth as the gospel.

Michigan DNR has absolutely no idea what the heck is going on in the deer woods...NONE!

They have no clue how many deer are killed anywhere in the state, let alone percentages of a specific age class. The figures put forth are estimates devised by formulas put forth by the same people giving you the estimates.

If a business owner ran their business the way the DNR manages whitetails in Michigan, you would soon be looking for work.

They do know if there is a drop in revenue.

All you can do is follow the law and take your common sense with you when you hunt.

If you want any kind of quality deer hunting in Michigan, it is gonna require MONEY to travel within the state to the few good areas that exist, OR travel out of state. I have been a very successful deer hunter in Michigan all of my life. EVERY year the same QUALITY of hunting from one year to the next becomes more and more difficult to find...and MUCH more expensive!

A "trophy" deer in Michigan is one that is broadside and twelve yards away.

[lpcjon2]

Its the same in most states. Jersey did away with deer check in stations and now its online check in( the majority of scrubs wont even do it), and thats what they do the statistics from at a desk. They dont go into the field anymore.

As it goes on the days of people in government who cared about wildlife retire or are put in places where they dont matter and so does the wildlife. No checks and balances anymore for the wildlife. Teddy Roosevelt it rolling over in his Grave!

[gvdocholiday]

Those formulas are actually quite accurate.  Ohio ran Michigan's survey formulas along side their mandatory check for a few years.  Found the survey to be statistically identical to the mandatory check numbers.  On a scale of one to ten in cost, the survey is one, and the mandatory check is 10.  

Ohio has changed theirs now to a phone check.  They'd rather do the survey, but for PR reasons they still have somewhat of a mandatory check.  So their cost now is at about a 6.  

When those numbers come back, they'll look at the number of license hunters, the percent success rate, and compare those numbers to years past.  Basically you can determine a species population by hunter success rate in an area.  If hunter numbers and success rate begin to decline, all predator/prey relationship graphs follow the same trend.  That means, prey(deer) are down.  If there's a 5 year trend that shows this, then license availability will be limited a bit and the goal will be to have a 5 year trend of success rate stability.  License availability isn't just some random number that is thrown out every year, they're based on very solid data collected from hunters.  

The problem is, that target population goals are still above what many areas can support and these levels are already below what a stereotypical MI hunter will tolerate.  

One of the benefits of not owning any property...I'm not tied to any one area.  I hunted public land in Manistee, Wexford, Lake, and Mason counties this year and private land in Newaygo and Montcalm counties.  I had deer inside 10yds ready to be shot in all of these counties.  Of 83 counties I'd say that over 70 are managed properly.  Hunters just need to be used deer numbers just under carrying capacity.

[Overspined]

Their kill stats are pretty right on. Over 90% buck babies killed each year...

I don't know if they know much else. I haven't reported a deer ever, because how would I? And I have killed up to 7 deer in a season. I can't imagine their numbers reflect anything close to reality.

Illinois is cool, it's self checked and measured via an automated line. That can't cost much.  Why can't we just copy their software?

Great deer BTW

[aim small...release]

I have spoken to a couple out of state sources and they really think that not haveing a firearm season in the middle of the rut somewhat helps them. It will never change i know because of tradition but imagine if it did.

[Roger Norris]

Originally posted by Steve O:
The Michigan deer herd will never reach its potential. Too many people, to many rifles with a Nov. 15 opener, too many cheaters, and a DNR that only cares about maximizing revenue.

Bingo. Our DNR is all about hunter opportunity, as in offering as many man hours afield as possible. They are also under threat of lawsuit by farm and auto insurance companies to cut down on deer accidents/damage.

What do you get? The old October 1st opener is gone.Prior to that  2 weekends (or weeks?) of "Special Hunts", that include firearms and crossbows. A late doe season. A firearms lobby that will not allow the change to gun season required (our gun season is peak of the rut).

Michigan has the genetics to produce great bucks. They just aren't willing to change.

And by the way, Antler Point Restrictions ARE NOT the answer. Only a small part of the equation.

[Mojostick]

There's a good read on page 54 in the March 2014 Deer and Deer Hunting mag titled "The Disgruntled Deer Hunter". I suggest everyone give it a read.

[Chain2]

We cultivate immediate gratification for these so called hunters with the youth season,and with baiting. Why do we have a statewide rifle season start on the same day and at the peak of the rut. Other states with alot more acres open to hunting have multiple staggered seasons for rifle hunting.
 Crossbows being used in regular archery season seems pretty stupid to me also. I have hunted in other states and provinces and they all mange their resources better than we do. We could do a lot better. We need to work on hunting, not killing.

[aim small...release]

Thank you for bringing the point up of other states manageing better which produces better deer. I was tskein some heat for my comment about better deer in other states I dont think they got what I was trying to say

[aim small...release]

Thank you for bringing the point up of other states manageing better which produces better deer. I was tskein some heat for my comment about better deer in other states I dont think they got what I was trying to say

[killinstuff]

For those banging on the youth hunt, grow up and take a good look in the mirror. It's one weekend and I'd rather see my kids or any kid for that matter make a kill before me.  I don't have high regards for anyone that would think otherwise. Are you that in need of a dead deer that you would take it away from a kid? It's not like every deer in the wood is dead after the youth hunt and if you think it changes deer movement well that happens every fall as guy start stomping around in the woods bird hunting, scouting and dumping bait regardless of the youth hunt. Life as a kid is not like it was when I was in school. Our high school has kids coming and going for all kinds of activities 7 days a week from 6am til 9pm. My son and daughters lives are non stop with school, sports and band so just trying to find an afternoon to hunt is not easy for them or me nowadays. The youth hunt gives a kid a chance to be in the woods and a chance to kill a deer in this busy life.

For 35 years now I've heard how the DNR is inept at everything they do as far as managing the fish and game in Michigan, through the good years and the bad. Game numbers go up and down like the tides and folks need to just go with it. It's called carrying capacity. This was a bad year no doubt but the 10 year before it were pretty dang good because the deer population was high and out of balance.  We are closer to balance than we have been in a long time. We also have a lot of hunters in this state and they all have a different goal and method to meet that goal. So be it. I'll never be one to worry about the other guy. You can do it your way, no one is taking that away. If someone else wants to kill things their way, that's fine with me, it's not a team sport. I hunt my way by myself for an animal and I can't blame anyone but me for not filling a tag.

Now I don't like the fact that I'll pass on a spike knowing full well that the next guy that sees it will more than likely kill it so I'm thankful for APR. I know how a lot of other guys feel about it and I'm sorry they disagree but I want to see what happens and I'm willing to not eat deer for a year to be able to see more bucks down the road.  Aim small when you talk about other states it's all about the number of hunters compared to the number of deer. If we want to be in that conversation we either need fewer hunters or more deer, both of which are not a viable answer.

[aim small...release]

Yes this is true about the hunters, but you have to consider most "big buck" states have a 1 buck limit in my opinion makeing hunters be more cautious on what deer they do shoot.

[Mojostick]

In 2012, hunters in the "regular" seasons killed 191,000 antlerless deer and 223,000 antlered bucks, for roughly 414,000 deer combined.

In 2012, youth and disabled hunters killed about 5000 antlerless deer and about 8000 antlered bucks, for roughly 13,000 deer combined.


In 2012, about 40,000 youth hunters were out on the 3rd weekend of September. On that same weekend, about 300,000 adults were small game hunting, scouting for deer/bumping deer, hanging stands, trimming stands, dumping bait piles and generally beating up the woods with human pressure. And if you're by my property, you may have had some 3 different groups of slob bear dog hunters running their dogs all over my land after they've repeated been asked and warned by CO's to stay off.

So in the grand scheme, it's adults who put the most pressure on the woods, prior to Oct. 1.

Here's a better idea than eliminating the youth/disabled hunt. Instead, open "regular" archery season on September 1 and run it thru Sept. 14. Then the traditional small game season can open on Sept. 15 and we can have the youth/disabled hunt and then "regular" archery can re-open back on Oct. 1.

This is a perfect compromise for those who get worked into a lather worrying that the kids or disabled vets may get a weekend crack at a deer before them. If they want to get out before the 2 day youth and disabled vet hunt, hunters would have 2 full weeks, from Sept. 1-14.

For those who don't understand why these Michigan "complaint" threads keep popping up, I suggest you watch "Escanaba in da Moonlight".    

Is there really a difference between those that complain about youth and disabled hunters shooting a buck before someone else gets a chance and those that complain about another hunter shooting a buck before it's big enough?

Both are just whiners cut from the same cloth if you ask me.

It all boils down to someone thinking someone else is taking something they deserve.

[Steve O]

Mojo,

You crack me up. You have all kinds of great numbers. The only trouble is they are coming from th DNR. I pulled some quick numbers too:

1998 was a record kill of 597,988. And mind you this was up   TWENTY FIVE PERCENT INCREASE  over the record kill in 1997.

Anybody remember how the hunting was in 1997?

The kill had dropped to 476,000 in 2002 five years later and essentially the same as 1997 and the decade before it.  Anybody remember how the deer hunting was in MI in 2002?

Now we go to your 2012 numbers of 418,000 and essentially the same 418,000 for 2011.

That says the 2012 (and 2011) harvest are 12% below 1997 and 2002.

That is the funniest thing I have ever heard!

BTW hunter numbers show in the same time period are down 16%.  A similar number less hunters taking less deer.

There are a very few pockets of Michigan that have good deer hunting, but I would wager 95% of us would give anything to go back to either 1997 OR 2002 and get that 12% back. I laugh just typing that.

I will have to look up the population estimates; that should be good for another laugh. We probably just got worse as hunter during the decade of the 2000s!

The DNRs numbers are B.S. They put out what they have to in order to sell the maximum number of licenses.

I wonder if the auto insurance companies car/deer collision payouts showed a similar drop of 12% in the last 12 years...

BTW, I am still the only one who answered the guy's original question on if the Michigan deer herd can ever reach it's potential    :D

Signed--Steve Osminski, disgruntled MI deer hunter

(But fortunately a gruntled Alaska, Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Kansas, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Ohio deer hunter!)


Oh, and by the way to the original poster. If you want to see what the POTENTIAL of Michigan deer is, look up the high fence ranch "The Sanctuary". Those were deer that were wild and native to the property and paid for when the enclosure was established that were fed an optimum diet and allowed to mature. Not now, go back to a few years after it started. There were lots of "hunts" filmed in there long ago before it was the craze it is now.

Originally posted by Steve O:
Oh, and by the way to the original poster. If you want to see what the POTENTIAL of Michigan deer is, look up the high fence ranch "The Sanctuary". Those were deer that were wild and native to the property and paid for when the enclosure was established that were fed an optimum diet and allowed to mature. Not now, go back to a few years after it started. There were lots of "hunts" filmed in there long ago before it was the craze it is now.

Yeah, if we could just get the state of MI to supply the entire deer herd with unlimited supplies of Purina Deer Chow and AntlerMax supplements like the Sanctuary does, we'd be all set.

From their website:

THE SECRET OF SANCTUARY  


For almost 20 years, the researchers at Purina Mills have been working with The Sanctuary to provide world-class nutrition to grow world-class deer. And because nutrition is such an integral part of growing big deer, Purina Mills¨ Deer Chow¨ truly is the secret to their amazing animals.

What makes Purina Deer Chow better than any deer feed on the market? It starts with unequalled Purina Mills Research - the foundation of their newly formulated Deer Chow diets. And the results speak for themselves: optimal antler growth speed, size and mass in bucks, high fertility in does and low mortality in fawns. All levels no other form of nutrition can produce.

Purina Mills devotion to product excellence and innovation continues today, with their AntlerMax Technology.

ANTLERMAX TECHNOLOGY  
 
AntlerMax is actually a protein technology. This patented nutritional delivery system provides a substantially higher quality protein to growing deer antlers. Simply put, feeding Deer Chow with AntlerMax will result in antler growth of unprecedented speed, size and mass. But there's more to the story than bigger, faster. AntlerMax delivers proprietary types and ratios of essential trace minerals that specifically target the needs of growing antler tissues, resulting in optimal antler density and strength."


Freak shows like the Sanctuary are what is ruining REAL deer hunting, and should be despised by all hunters for being the abomination it is.