Old School tuning......

[Bowwild]

NBK makes a good point. What many of us call "old School" is laced with lots of experience that we sometimes take for granted.

Sometimes when I read the "tuning trouble threads" and read the combos the archer is having trouble with I wonder, why he/she is trying to do that.

I agree with all those who rate consistent and proper form as the foundation for all this. If one can't make a proper shot and do it from shot to shot, the comparisons one has to make when tuning aren't possible.

I didn't want to go there (form) early in the post because I didn't want to cause those who have trouble with form and subsequently tuning to throw up their hands and conclude they are screwed.

I'll make another comment about Stu's Calculator. (I don't know the fellow, just his work, so this isn't a personal plug.) I don't remember having trouble tuning any kind of bow the last 35 years of my archery. But, I did have lots of trouble the first 10 years! Frankly that early trouble had more to do with shoddy production of broadheads in those days. My arrows shot fine with field points but some of the broadhead pointed arrows planed all over the place (Satellite and Savora were two that I tried to use).

But, when I discovered Stu's on this site about 4 years ago I loved it!  It provides one the opportunity to game with and better understand all the impacts various bow and arrow specifications can have on dynamic spine.

[mgf]

Obviously, you can't really tune the bow very well if you can't hit anything anyway.

However, "the way you shoot" is one of the things that you're tuning for.

I tune primarily by group location or impact point. I'm looking for my bare shafts or broadheads to group to the same place as fletched field points. Bare shaft or even broadhead groups may be larger than fletched field points but the center should be in the same place.

The result is the best tune possible given your level of shooting ability. The smaller your groups, the better you can tune.

[Red Beastmaster]

I guess I've picked up on a few things in the last 25 years of shooting stickbows. My tuning process takes about 10 minutes.

First of all I have a pretty good feeling what spine arrow I will need based on center cut of the bow (recurve: same spine as bow wt,   longbow: a tad lower). I set my nock at 5/8", brace longbows at 7" and recurves at 8-1/2". Then I shoot fletched arrows. Maybe just a few twists later I am seeing great flight.

If I'm getting a slight twitch in flight with broadheads usually turning cock feather in takes care of it.

[tracker12]

I have a friend that is obsessed with paper tuning his bow.  He will spend hours trying to get the elusive bullet hole.  Problem is that his confidence goes way down when he gets a bad paper tear.  Which is more often than not.  For me it's a waist of time.  I have always had release issues that cloud the results.

[mgf]

I don't worry about bullet holes in paper. I just need to be able to hit what I shoot at with a broadhead traveling straight enough to get decent penetration.

Bare shaft flight/impact is an indication of whether or not I'm about there. Then I shoot a few broadheads to verify.

If broadhead targets weren't so expensive, I would  go right to the broadhead shooting because that's what counts. If they group where I aim, it's time to go hunting.

All that said, I use all sorts of odds and end arrows (leftovers) for stump shooting and even shooting small game with blunts. Within reason, the fletching is enough to straighten out the flight of a blunt tipped arrow that is less than a perfect match.

[ddauler]

I agree I killed near a hundred deer before I ever heard of bare shafting!

[mgf]

Originally posted by ddauler:
I agree I killed near a hundred deer before I ever heard of bare shafting!

I wounded and lost some before I learned something about "tuning".

I started with a compound...that's what the shop sold. I used the arrows they built for me and they flew ok with field tips.

This was back before the internet and I didn't even know anybody else who bowhunted except the guys at the shop.

I couldn't shoot broadheads at the indoor range and didn't have anyplace else to shoot except for the hunting woods.

I took the bow and went hunting. It's just that the broadheads didn't fly well so it made a mess of the deer.

The "mystery" persisted into my "trad" shooting. In fact I still have that first recurve and some of the 29 inch 2117 I first started with. Those arrows still shoot WAY stiff and broadheads fly to the left. LOL I hunted with that stuff for several years before I shot enough broadheads to become convinced there was a "problem".

I just didn't shoot many broadheads unless there was a deer in front of me and there wasn't anybody around to tell me any better. All I heard was this stuff about not having to "tune" much.

[gonefishing600]

Well I believe in my heart that all of us as traditional archers ultimately want to achieve perfect arrow flight. And It looks like to me what everyone is trying to say to those beginning archers that are experiencing the frustration of trying to achieve perfect arrow flight is: KEEP MOVING FORWARD!

My frustration early on was I was dealing with a shop that sold strictly compound bows and didn’t know squat about traditional equipment. He measured my draw, look at a chart and cut the shafts 1 inch longer than my draw, charged me $120.00 and said hear you go. I'm sure I don't have to explain how those arrows flew, but I was not going to let this one dilemma interfere with my traditional pursuit, I kept moving forward. My breakthrough came when I bought an arrow saw.

[amicus]

I have a lot of fun tuning my arrows and have learned a lot about arrow flight.  Most of the frustration comes from inexperince, in my opinon.

Gilbert

[Danny Rowan]

I have been shooting recurves and longbows since 1966. I have never shot a bare shaft or shot thru paper. An old timer back then gave me a formula to figure out what wood shafts I needed for any given bow based on draw weight, point weight, arrow length and center cut of the bow and once ff strings came on the scene,that was added into the formula, Never failed me when I shot wood. Now that I shoot carbon, because most of them have a wide spine tolerence, i had to tinker a bit at first with what spine I needed but once I found the correct carbon arrow, never a problem. All of my bows shoot the same arrow. Simple works.

[mgf]

Originally posted by Danny Rowan:
I have been shooting recurves and longbows since 1966. I have never shot a bare shaft or shot thru paper. An old timer back then gave me a formula to figure out what wood shafts I needed for any given bow based on draw weight, point weight, arrow length and center cut of the bow and once ff strings came on the scene,that was added into the formula, Never failed me when I shot wood. Now that I shoot carbon, because most of them have a wide spine tolerence, i had to tinker a bit at first with what spine I needed but once I found the correct carbon arrow, never a problem. All of my bows shoot the same arrow. Simple works.

That formula sounds interesting given that bows of similar draw weight may shoot very different speeds and require significantly different arrows.

Where does the "simple" come in?

[Brianlocal3]

I think the simple comes in like this,
Once Danny was taught the formula, all he had to do was run the numbers in his head, (real quick I'm sure) and viola he had the shafts that shoot well. It sounds nice and simple to me.

[mgf]

Originally posted by Brianlocal3:
I think the simple comes in like this,
Once Danny was taught the formula, all he had to do was run the numbers in his head, (real quick I'm sure) and viola he had the shafts that shoot well. It sounds nice and simple to me.

Doing a little arithmetic is simple enough. What concerns me is the validity of the formula.

There are variables in bow design other than draw weight and center shot that effect "speed" or what spine arrow will work.

Then, of course, once you have an arrow that's "tunable" brace height, or even string silencer type/size/location can get things in/out of "tune". Where does that enter into the formula?

I agree that you don't have to shoot bare shafts or shoot through paper. I do think that you need to shoot some broad heads and "tune" your bow/arrow combination to shoot them as good as your skill level will allow...if you're going to hunt.

Ignoring the physics doesn't make it go away.

[katman]

Originally posted by JC:
Coming from the other side of the "camp", I find tuning arrows a lot of fun and has become an extreme confidence builder over the years. While there are many of you out there don't want it or need it,  some of us actually like it. I like to tinker with my gear and have learned a lot more through experimenting on my own and through the experiments of others than I ever would have following a norm or what I was originally taught.

I too feel for those who have trouble tuning. However, I firmly believe anyone can tune with 1) proper form and 2) a bit of guidance. It's amazing what kind of improvements can be done with a video of the shooter and following the proper procedure for tuning. However, #2 is useless without #1, so I agree with the posters that say this is of primary importance.

I also am positive I am a far better shot with tuned and dialed in equipment than without. It is not "the" factor but for me, it is certainly a beneficial contributor. I and others I know have helped improve the shooting of archers simply by helping them get their equipment tuned. I don't mean getting to paper plate size, I mean tennis balls and smaller. Their form and overall shooting skill was good but they suffered from multiple maladies, including discouraged confidence, that were alleviated from systematic adjustments to equipment until it was on. Their confidence soared and in turn, I think they are better bowhunters for it. I'm sure everyone would agree if it will help you take a more ethical shot on an animal with trad gear it certainly can't hurt.

If you don't want it and are happy with your results, then by all means I wish you the best in your chosen method. But if you aren't satisfied and want every possible ounce you can squeeze out of your gear, then tuning, and "micro" tuning just might help you.

Yes, it can be as simple or as complex as you want, but that doesn't mean either is better than the other. It is simply what you choose it to be.

Well said JC.

[ishoot4thrills]

I'm with JC on this....

[arrow flynn]

I think its a form issue if you don't have consistant drawlenghth then that needs to be addressed first.I use a clicker which helped me.

[gonefishing600]

Originally posted by Danny Rowan:
I have been shooting recurves and longbows since 1966. I have never shot a bare shaft or shot thru paper. An old timer back then gave me a formula to figure out what wood shafts I needed for any given bow based on draw weight, point weight, arrow length and center cut of the bow and once ff strings came on the scene,that was added into the formula, Never failed me when I shot wood. Now that I shoot carbon, because most of them have a wide spine tolerence, i had to tinker a bit at first with what spine I needed but once I found the correct carbon arrow, never a problem. All of my bows shoot the same arrow. Simple works.

Ok, cough it up! Yea, that's wright the formula, let's have it!

     

[KSdan]

Well placed arrow. . . good form. . .   you can kill a deer with a .22. . .  want to be as simple as possible. . . most would call me old school. All true!  FACT IS:  After 40 years I still get shook up in the presence of deer, I am not warmed up, I am tired, twigs are in the way, a deer is nervous, it is a game of inches sometimes, and I do not always perform/shoot as well as I like.

CONCLUSION: I am going to eliminate the most variables I can which means shoot the best possible arrow I can. All things being equal- I am going for a well tuned combination of heavy shaft, high foc, small fletch, penetrating head.  NEEDED to kill deer?  NO!  But the day you lose a PY deer over one inch- you may wish you had spent an evening dialing it in a bit better.  Been there done that!

BTW- Some would call me "old school"- but a Black Widow with ff string and 31" draw is not apples to apples with a 60s Bear.    

2C
Dan In KS

[Mark Baker]

I think the message is this.....

Traditional archery/bowhunting is supposed to be simple.  At least for me.  Back to basics.  Don't want to "worry" about equipment...just want to shoot it.  

Tuning cartwheels is fine for those who relish creating a challenge for themselves.  Some of us don't want to do it.  But the info they get from those who "love" it is often confusing, challenging, costs a lot of $$$ to do...and a whole host of "other" stuff that really messes with the confidence of beginners and discourages them, IMO.  Not everyone, in fact I'd say most of us, like to tune arrows...we just want to shoot them.  

In 40 years, building at least a half-dozen selfbows and backed bows, and laminated bows each year, I almost never have issues with arrow flight.  It's simple.   Understand spine, and paradox, and what creates good flight, and you can easily make good arrows that will fly.  

If you like to "muddy" the waters and experiment, Okay...but it shouldn't be rocket science....we're scaring the kids here!  Teach them the basics, then "play" all you want.  That's my 2 cents.

[Ric O'Shay]

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
I think the message is this.....

Traditional archery/bowhunting is supposed to be simple.  At least for me.  Back to basics.  Don't want to "worry" about equipment...just want to shoot it.  

Tuning cartwheels is fine for those who relish creating a challenge for themselves.  Some of us don't want to do it.  But the info they get from those who "love" it is often confusing, challenging, costs a lot of $$$ to do...and a whole host of "other" stuff that really messes with the confidence of beginners and discourages them, IMO.  Not everyone, in fact I'd say most of us, like to tune arrows...we just want to shoot them.  

In 40 years, building at least a half-dozen selfbows and backed bows, and laminated bows each year, I almost never have issues with arrow flight.  It's simple.   Understand spine, and paradox, and what creates good flight, and you can easily make good arrows that will fly.  

If you like to "muddy" the waters and experiment, Okay...but it shouldn't be rocket science....we're scaring the kids here!  Teach them the basics, then "play" all you want.  That's my 2 cents.

Yes Sir!