Old School tuning......

[SELFBOW19953]

I agree with what Mark Baker said 100%.

From what I've heard others here say, it seems that as we go higher tech with arrows-wood to glass to aluminum to carbon-they recover from paradox at different rates, so they become more sensitive.  The more high tech the arrows, the more sensitive to faults in form, release, length, point weight, spine, brace height, nock height, nock tightness. That's why I stick with wood.

[Danny Rowan]

Exactly Brian and yes sir Mark.

mdf, I am sorry, but speed has nothing to do with it. The speed of the bow is not going to determine what spine arrow is needed, neither is silencers. The type of string materail yes. Granted brace and nock point need to be adjusted but that is part of the equation to fine tune after the proper spine is selected as is shooting broadheads, which should be spin tested first, to make sure they fly correctly.

[Danny Rowan]

[Bjorn]

I use the same formula that Danny uses and it works great! Being a bit obsessive I then bareshaft just to be sure and bareshafting has yet to reveal anything the formula did not cover. It is simple and has not let me down.      

[mgf]

Originally posted by Danny Rowan:
Exactly Brian and yes sir Mark.

mdf, I am sorry, but speed has nothing to do with it. The speed of the bow is not going to determine what spine arrow is needed, neither is silencers. The type of string materail yes. Granted brace and nock point need to be adjusted but that is part of the equation to fine tune after the proper spine is selected as is shooting broadheads, which should be spin tested first, to make sure they fly correctly.

I don't think we really disagree about anything. The point is that you have to tweak things like brace height and nock point location to get good broadhead flight.

That's tuning, right?

As I said earlier, I only use bare shafts because it gets me really close and minimizes the umber of bradheads I need to shoot. That's only a  concern because broadheads destoy targets that tend to be fairly expensive.

It's very rare that I have to make any adjustments for broadheads after tuning with bare shafts.

[hvyhitter]

Im in the old school catagory too. A new bow gets a new string set up to my specs then grab a few arrows and see what works best. Paper tuned once in the late 80s for my one and only compound and it was a real PIA. Tried bareshfting once about 15 yrs ago with confusing results so I went back to feild vs broadhead groups and never have a problem...........I also keep all my old arrows so its easy to get the right one to work with a little tuning...........

[highPlains]

I really sympathize with both sides of this argument. Since I spend all day every day with new and old traditional archers I'd like to weigh in on this topic. More than anything to hopefully persuade some of you guys to have a little compassion for those who are less experienced. Pointed advice is needed, and generalities don't make sense to a guy with no experience.

This thread is great advice for the experienced archer that has gone down the path of over analyzing the sport. But not for the beginner full of excitement about archery, without a lick of experience or knowledge to fall back on. There is something to be said for not complicating this sport. But there is also some advice that will only further frustrate a lot of beginning archers.

It is simple to you guys that have done this since 1950. You have a lifetime of experience behind you. If you have experience under your belt then you know tuning either through reasoning it out, or just a "feel" you have developed. You probably also have a trash can full of tester arrows that can help you identify the correct shaft. You can grab some arrows and find what flies perfect. Not everybody has that.

It is not simple to the guy that bought a Samick Sage from the Big Box store and they sold him a set of .300 spine carbon arrows to go with it. He is scratching his head and watching his arrows wag their way down to the target. The "KISS" method, or the "grab a set of arrows and go hunt" method, doesn't do this new shooter any favors. He has, literally, no experience to fall back on.

I don't necessarily like the new age, ultra technical line of thinking. I'm relatively young, but traditional archery has literally been my lifestyle since I can remember, and now it is my livelihood. I find myself far more inline with you "old school" guys. Just last year my cousin built me a bow and brought it to Texas for a pig hunt, I brought some woodies that I "thought" should work out of the bow. The first day I had that bow in my hands I stalked and killed two pigs. The bow had a different impact point than the one I was currently shooting, and my arrows hit to the left. My arrows weren't "PERFECT", but they were danged close. I was able to make a mental adjustment after a couple dozen shots, and my arrows zipped through both sides of both pigs, both fell within sight. No tuning required, thankfully I had the experience and a trashcan full of old arrows to choose from.

The guy that over complicates this sport leads himself down a path of constant frustration and a loss of confidence (the opposite of what he's striving for). That guy needs to understand that this sport is simpler. I sometimes feel frustrated when the conversation turns far more technical than it needs to, and I want to smack some of my friends on the head once in a while and tell them that it is a lot more simple than they are making it (all in good fun). These guys need the KISS advice.

There is nothing wrong with understanding the basics of how and why an arrow flies out of a bow. What does a stiff arrow do? What does a weak arrow do? How can you identify a stiff/weak arrow, and then how do you make a change to that arrow to get it to fly well? The pursuit of this knowledge is not sacrilege.

As bowhunters, we need to strive for an arrow that flies true. No fishtailing, and no porpoising. Arrows that "group", but porpoise, are not tuned.

There is a happy medium between simplicity and understanding the physics. Personally that is the medium I strive for. I am happy to talk the technical talk, or simply grab a set of arrows and shoot.

This forum is an excellent resource. This sport can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. Some guys love tinkering, love to experiment with tuning methods, arrow shafts, point weights, FOC, etc etc, and they LOVE the pursuit of more knowledge. Some guys want to just watch their arrows fly without the fuss. Both guys love archery. Like I said at the beginning, I enjoy both guys, and depending on the day, I am both guys. There are more than one ways to skin this cat.

It is not my intent to offend or cause conflict here. Great discussion.

[Brianlocal3]

Outstanding post

[Gordon Jabben]

I agree with the "Outstanding post".  Never even thought much about tuning until I joined Tradgang and I think the reason is that I have always used large feathers and 3" to 1" broadheads which will let almost any arrow fly well.

[mgf]

Originally posted by hvyhitter:
Im in the old school catagory too. A new bow gets a new string set up to my specs then grab a few arrows and see what works best. Paper tuned once in the late 80s for my one and only compound and it was a real PIA. Tried bareshfting once about 15 yrs ago with confusing results so I went back to feild vs broadhead groups and never have a problem...........I also keep all my old arrows so its easy to get the right one to work with a little tuning...........

Exactly..."field vs broad head groups"?

That's all you do with bare shafts...compare how they group to how fletched field points group.

[Boneyard Bowhunter]

Keep it simple and keep it fun.

[hvyhitter]

Mike, What I was getting at is that bareshaft to broadhead is a two part proccess. Part 1 is bareshafts and fletched fieldpoints to get you the right shaft size and pretty close in length/point weight. Part 2 is backing up to 30yds or so and fine tuning with point weight or brace height or nock pont to get fletched fieldpoints/broadheads into he same group.......A nice group at 20yds can become two at 30. I just skip the first part. My nock point is pretty constant at 9/16 for most bows but will show a tad high or low at 30 w/broadheads. I also tune everything for 160 snuffers so thats one less veriable to worry about.......

I know what arrows I have and I know what is required from a bow to make them shoot. So I only get bows that shoot the arrows I have. Of course I will adjust point weights a bit, but never the length or the spines. Besides, I am terrified of carbon fiber dust or having a carbon arrow blowup.

[Ric O'Shay]

Originally posted by Ric O'Shay:
[QB] I'm not trying to offend anyone and I'm certainly not going to demean any equipment that folks want to use. However, I just read through several pages of headaches and heartaches that some folks are having trying to "tune" their bows to their arrows or their arrows to their bows. It hurt my head just reading their woes.          One person said he was so frustrated that he was thinking of giving up shooting. That to me is just sad. Very sad.

It appears to me that this post has deviated from my original intent to a ME vs. THEM bow and arrow tuning. I simply noted that I thought it was sad that someone would give up archery because some issues of obsessive bow tuning became that frustrating. The intent was not how to best tune a bow.
I believe that in some ways our "techie" world today has created just that sort of obsession in everything we do.
I choose to escape from that high tech world by shooting my longbow and even regressing to the wonderful world of yesteryear when things were slow and easy and not filled with instant gratification and all of the acronyms that have invaded our lives.

To those of you that choose not to escape as I do, that's fine with me. But it is still sad when the techie world drives someone away from a sport that has been with us since God breathed life into Adam. Again, to me, that is sad. Very sad.

Danny

[gringol]

Ric, I appreciate your sentiments on tuning, but I'll echo what others have said regarding experience or lack of it.  A 50yr veteran can tune a bow in his sleep.  A newbie needs some guidance and some kind of method to get his gear tuned up.  That's where paper and bare shafts come in.  That said, I find myself grinding my teeth when someone tells a newbie that he needs to have bare shafts flying perfectly from 30 yds.  That's unnecessary and frankly impossible for 99% of newbies.  

Let's keep things simple.

[mgf]

I don't know if the "techie world" is driving anybody out.

"Traditional" equipment might be comparatively simple but hitting the target with any degree of regularity isn't all that easy...maybe not so simple?

Some people can have fun even when the miss a lot, some will stick with it as they work toward their goals and others get frustrated and quit.

[Easykeeper]

Originally posted by highPlains:
I really sympathize with both sides of this argument. Since I spend all day every day with new and old traditional archers I'd like to weigh in on this topic. More than anything to hopefully persuade some of you guys to have a little compassion for those who are less experienced. Pointed advice is needed, and generalities don't make sense to a guy with no experience.

This thread is great advice for the experienced archer that has gone down the path of over analyzing the sport. But not for the beginner full of excitement about archery, without a lick of experience or knowledge to fall back on. There is something to be said for not complicating this sport. But there is also some advice that will only further frustrate a lot of beginning archers.

It is simple to you guys that have done this since 1950. You have a lifetime of experience behind you. If you have experience under your belt then you know tuning either through reasoning it out, or just a "feel" you have developed. You probably also have a trash can full of tester arrows that can help you identify the correct shaft. You can grab some arrows and find what flies perfect. Not everybody has that.

It is not simple to the guy that bought a Samick Sage from the Big Box store and they sold him a set of .300 spine carbon arrows to go with it. He is scratching his head and watching his arrows wag their way down to the target. The "KISS" method, or the "grab a set of arrows and go hunt" method, doesn't do this new shooter any favors. He has, literally, no experience to fall back on.

I don't necessarily like the new age, ultra technical line of thinking. I'm relatively young, but traditional archery has literally been my lifestyle since I can remember, and now it is my livelihood. I find myself far more inline with you "old school" guys. Just last year my cousin built me a bow and brought it to Texas for a pig hunt, I brought some woodies that I "thought" should work out of the bow. The first day I had that bow in my hands I stalked and killed two pigs. The bow had a different impact point than the one I was currently shooting, and my arrows hit to the left. My arrows weren't "PERFECT", but they were danged close. I was able to make a mental adjustment after a couple dozen shots, and my arrows zipped through both sides of both pigs, both fell within sight. No tuning required, thankfully I had the experience and a trashcan full of old arrows to choose from.

The guy that over complicates this sport leads himself down a path of constant frustration and a loss of confidence (the opposite of what he's striving for). That guy needs to understand that this sport is simpler. I sometimes feel frustrated when the conversation turns far more technical than it needs to, and I want to smack some of my friends on the head once in a while and tell them that it is a lot more simple than they are making it (all in good fun). These guys need the KISS advice.

There is nothing wrong with understanding the basics of how and why an arrow flies out of a bow. What does a stiff arrow do? What does a weak arrow do? How can you identify a stiff/weak arrow, and then how do you make a change to that arrow to get it to fly well? The pursuit of this knowledge is not sacrilege.

As bowhunters, we need to strive for an arrow that flies true. No fishtailing, and no porpoising. Arrows that "group", but porpoise, are not tuned.

There is a happy medium between simplicity and understanding the physics. Personally that is the medium I strive for. I am happy to talk the technical talk, or simply grab a set of arrows and shoot.

This forum is an excellent resource. This sport can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. Some guys love tinkering, love to experiment with tuning methods, arrow shafts, point weights, FOC, etc etc, and they LOVE the pursuit of more knowledge. Some guys want to just watch their arrows fly without the fuss. Both guys love archery. Like I said at the beginning, I enjoy both guys, and depending on the day, I am both guys. There are more than one ways to skin this cat.

It is not my intent to offend or cause conflict here. Great discussion.

Great post, completely agree...  

A couple of years ago a kid stopped by and asked for help with his longbow. His arrows had a spiral tail action. He had some carbons and some cedars, they flew the same. He had tried everything. when he showed me his Big 5, he had the brace way out and the nock real high. I reset everything and shot it, both arrows and they both were good. He shot and they both spiraled. He was torquing his release hand and his bow hand. With some work, he pured up his form and his arrows flew straight. With new shooters, the last thing they tune is themselves, all too often.

[daveycrockett]

Originally posted by pavan:
A souple a years ago a kid stopped by and asked for help with his longbow. His arrows had a spiral tail action. He had some carbons and some cedars, they flew the same. He had tried everything. when he showed me his Big 5, he had the brace way out and the nock real high. I reset everything and shot it both arrows and they both good. He shot and they both spiraled. He was torquing his release hand and his bow hand. With some work, he pured up his form and his arrows flew straight. With new shooters, the last thing they tune is themselves, all too often.

Bingo.  

A souple? What is a souple. That is what i get for typing and talking to my walk ins at the same time. I will fix that.