higher FOC flight in wind?

[Pete McMiller]

I've done some playing around with smaller fletching just because I know someone who uses them.  What I found was - if a shaft shoots darts bare shafted it can shoot darts no matter what fletch size is used IF your release is perfect.  The results, even with broadheads were great until I plucked a little and then who knows where that arrow is going to end up.  There just wasn't enough steerage with the smaller fletch and a large broadhead under a less than ideal release.

As is surmised, the arrows flew great in the wind with fletching as small as 2".  Much less kick to the side. My set up was a 720 gr. arrow with 23% FOC and a Grizzly Kodiak up front. A slight change in vertical point of impact at 30 yds. but less than I anticipated.

The problem isn't the equipment, it's me, the shooter, being just inconsistent enough so the smaller fletch hurt more than help.  If I had more consistent form on release, I'd change all my arrows over to 2".  These weren't commercial fletching just cut down 5" parabolic.

Now, for use with field points, blunts, or real small broadheads they might be the ticket but I never tested those.

[Zradix]

I agree with ya Pete.

Many talk of forgiving bows....
I feel forgiving arrows are just as important if not more...

[skilonbw]

If you go back and read all of Ashby data he has collected in the reports, I think at one point he does come up with a recommended fletch size and from having read in other places those who try that fletch size have really good luck in wind and still no problem with killing an animal.

[old_goat2]

Pete M. x2 for me, couldn't of put it better

[Iowabowhunter]

Does anyone know what size fletch Ashby recommended?

[skilonbw]

I believe it became known as the A&A fletch type. It was like 2.5"long 4 feathers and 2.5" tall at the back of the feather.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'm not a big EFOC fan myself. I prefer a more balanced arrow personally.... but for guys who like that up front weight, the amount of fletching needed for good flight stability is less for field tips than it is using broadheads.

I would recommend a 2.5" low profile feather with a good helical set to it, or a Bi-Delta vane set up works very well in windy conditions.

They also make a low profile "Quick Spin" vane that does really well in a cross wind. the problem with running vanes on a Trad set up is you typically need an elevated rest and a cut past center riser to get decent shelf clearance.

[mmgrode]

Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
The "sideways" example is exaggerated. If your arrows are flying "sideways" no set up is going to do well.
 
I'd rather hit the mark with an arrow that's slightly unstable than miss with a stable arrow.

Amen. Can't kill what you don't hit! Or don't hit in the right place!

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by JimB:


I mostly only shoot out to 30 yds and there are no issues with aiming right at the bulls eye in a 30 mph cross wind.

Jim...don't take this wrong....but are you saying that with a 30 MPH CROSS wind at 30 yards you do NOT have to lead the bulls eye?

[katman]

The A&A fletch is 2.5" long and 0.5" high at the rear feather, basically a right triangle.

What I am always curious about, can I make my arrows so they will NOT tack into the wind?  Then the question is how far does the wind move an arrow that flies straight behind the broad head?   No matter how fast the arrow is moving, it will drift with the wind, the variable is how much it catches the wind versus how long it is in the air.  If you drop an arrow straight down and it takes one second to hit the ground, the amount of wind drift will be almost identical to a shot that takes one second to reach the target.  It may not be as far as you think, but there will always be some.

[T Sunstone]

I shot a judo a couple times in a 60 to 70 mph cross winds just to see what would happen.  It's just a guess on the wind, I was elk hunting in Colorado up on top of Burro mountain.  Couldn't hardly stand up.  The arrow was a 22216 with a 145 grain head and 3 5 1/2" fletching.  The shot was about 25 yards and the arrow would turn almost a 90 degree angle ( side ways ) then correct itself about 4 or 5 times before it hit.  The funny thing is I thought it would be blown several feet off target but was only about a foot.  Probably had no energy by the time it got there.
Try this, take a hfc tapered bare shaft and throw it up in the air 50 feet and it will hit point first.  Now try a normal shaft it won't.

I toss arrows like yard darts all the time and shoot them where they stick.  They are just your basic tapered cedars or 1918s.  When you toss your's they don't?

[Zradix]

me too...it's a fun way to practice!

[T Sunstone]

Originally posted by pavan:
I toss arrows like yard darts all the time and shoot them where they stick.  They are just your basic tapered cedars or 1918s.  When you toss your's they don't?

Bare shaft no feathers.

[Terry Green]

Still hoping Jim would get back to me on the windage question.

Anyhow, I like a straighter arrow hitting the target every time. I'd rather have the whole arrow drifting more even than some scenarios I've seen and like the ones here I'm hearing about. More energy to drive the arrow than one hitting at an angle.

How much energy does a sideways arrow rob?  I don't know but do know I've snapped a few wood arrows that hit sideways back when I USE to bare shaft.  They always snapped 2-3 inches from the point.

[Zradix]

My point exactly Terry.

There is a definite balance to be found in a HUNTING arrow...target shooting clearly runs on a whole other set of rules.

There is something to be said for a fairly high foc hunting arrow with 4 5" feathers....talk about stable..I love it.
....but I know I don't want to shoot at game in a strong cross wind with them at more than 10yds. Seems to take about that long for my arrow to get "weather vaned" by stiff winds ( 20 mph or so).

If I knew it was a really windy day I just might take my woodies that do fly much straighter thru a cross wind...only because they're a little heavier overall arrow, much less foc, same feathers.

...not because wood has "magical" properties...lol

Really I see no problem with having different arrows for different situations..
I mean...I'd LOVE a new Vette C7..but I'm not taking it mudding...

To each there own of course...but that's my story.

   

[rraming]

Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
The "sideways" example is exaggerated. If your arrows are flying "sideways" no set up is going to do well.
 
I'd rather hit the mark with an arrow that's slightly unstable than miss with a stable arrow.

How far are you guys shooting anyways?

That's funny right there

I thought the heavy foc was used by target shooters to help out with the cross wind stuff - don't do that but thought that was correct.

I was out at the range one day with a wind behind me, like 30 mph, flight was so bad I went home. I don't practice on super windy days for that reason. Same shaft bare shafts at 20 yards. Still blame the wind and not some weird form, gravity, alien thingy. Maybe the moon was out - never looked for it.

[JimB]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
Still hoping Jim would get back to me on the windage question.

Anyhow, I like a straighter arrow hitting the target every time. I'd rather have the whole arrow drifting more even than some scenarios I've seen and like the ones here I'm hearing about. More energy to drive the arrow than one hitting at an angle.

How much energy does a sideways arrow rob?  I don't know but do know I've snapped a few wood arrows that hit sideways back when I USE to bare shaft.  They always snapped 2-3 inches from the point.

Terry,yes.I don't even think about it.And it's not a subconsious/compensating thing as I use point on to shoot at 30.Now understand,I'm talking about really high FOC,like 29-35%.I get a substantial loss of penetration with standard FOC arrows hitting the target at an angle but as I stated,the second the high FOC hits,it enters straight.It's a crazy thing to watch but happens everytime.

I had been talking to trad friends about this for some time and later,Doc Ashby wrote about the very same thing.

I have briefly played with trying to build a standard FOC arrow,exactly the same diameter and weight as my high FOC ones to make a real comparison but so far that has been difficult.Adding internal weight,the entire length of the shaft has done all kinds of crazy things to flight.It's a real juggling act to get it tuned,and the exact weight.If I ever can get that accomplished,I would like to do a penetration test,chrono at 20 or 30 yds and maybe a flight test.

My most stable aluminum arrow for cross wind shots is 4" four fletch, 27" bop with either a 160 Grizz on a glue only ferrule or the same shaft with a screw on Delta.  If that Delta would be 22degrees off when it hit a deer, the effectiveness would go way down, depending on the attitude of the blade at impact.  I have  cedars that are better.  A fellow told me that it was not possible to get a pass through with wood shafts.  He went on to explain that he uses only 750 grains with 30% foc and he had never gotten a complete pass through, so we never get them.  Back in the 60's we had many discussions about too much point weight and too much broad head surface and what it did to arrows in the wind.  Wind on the prairie can happen, but when it is one of those 'put rocks in your pockets and tie down Gramma' winds, I stay home.