Self-bow vs. production bow.

[kagross]

Given equal draw weight/length (say 50#@28"), and equal arrow weight (say 9gpp), what is the difference in power between, say a hickory selfbow, and a more efficient modern recurve or longbow (i.e. a Sammick Sage, or bear montana).  I know there are many variables here, especially in selfbow specs, so just a ballpark, like what difference in speed (same weight arrow for both), etc.

[Kris]

A well made selfbow might shoot between 150 - 170 fps and a conventional glass bow shooting a similar weight arrow might be between 170 - 195 fps.  Very general but that could be the range.  It is safe to say a glass bow will typically outperform a selfbow.

Does this help?

Kris

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It depends on who is building the bows. I know a bowyer that has built all wood laminated bows that tested in the high 180's to low 190's at 10 gpp, and there are a lot of glass bows out there that only shoot 170-175 fps.... I've seen some incredibly fast self bows out there too...

[Horserod]

Kirk,  What do you think makes those particular self bows perform better?  Is it the species of wood used? Is it the design? Is it the tiller???  I know there are some very talented guys out there making some great bows.  It would seem to me there is something special........I've seen some very nice bows that should shoot great, but, don't either.  Can you give us "primitive" thinking guys some insight???  Thanks,  Horserod

[Mark Baker]

I am a selfbow enthusiast and builder.  That said, it's entirely correct to suggest that a selfbow, in general, will not shoot "as fast" as any typically caparable (weight wise at a certain draw length) glass bow.  I will not put parameters on it though.

Why ask?  Do you doubt a selfbows abilities?  At close ranges, the differences are less than an eye-blink between the two.  You will be more limited in your abilities to shoot either, and in you confidences in them, than the limiting differences between the two.

[snag]

"Why ask? Do you doubt a selfbows abilities? At close ranges, the differences are less than an eye-blink between the two. You will be more limited in your abilities to shoot either, and in you confidences in them, than the limiting differences between the two."....well stated Mark.

[Traxx]

well stated Mark.

Yes it was.

[LBR]

The down-side, for me, is that a selfbow's life is generally more limited;  and they are more likely to take a set/loose draw weight over time.

Too many variables to make an honest comparison.  I own 3 selfbows, and any of the three will out-perform some laminated bows I've shot.  On the flip side, I've shot some selfbows that were really slow...but I'm sure that any one of them would have been fine for killing deer, as long as I did my part correctly.

[Pat B]

When you make selfbows life span isn't a serious matter and I've never been concerned with life span when I build and use a selfbow. You just make another one. I rarely keep a bow more than a year or two before I give it to someone anyway. I do have selfbows with quite a few thousand arrows through them and I would hunt with them without reservation.
 Folks that don't shoot and build selfbows have no idea what they are missing. At hunting range I don't think I could tell the difference in a shot with one of my selfbows and my Treadway longbow. The Treadway is faster and shoots right where I'm looking. My selfbow might not be as fast but it shoots right where I'm looking.  
  With any bow, whether it shoots 130fps or 190 fps, if you know the trajectory or your arrows , your arrows fly true and the head is scary sharp it is capable of taking any game animal in North America.
 To me it is knowing I can make all my own equipment and this stuff is capable of doing what I ask it to do in a hunting situation.
 I never shoot my glass bows anymore.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Pat B:

 Folks that don't shoot and build selfbows have no idea what they are missing.

I couldn't have said it better. I still hunt and shoot with my glass bows, but I have been bitten hard by the selfbow. They are just plain fun. I just make my selfbows a few pounds heavier and under 20 yrds i don't really see much difference.

[Orion]

Another way of stating it is to say a selfbow needs to be about 5# heavier than a glass laminated bow to shoot the same arrow the same speed.  Just a ballpark figure of course, and there certainly are exceptions.

But, as Mark already pointed out, at hunting ranges, that's not a difference to worry about.

[KeganM]

I shot a narrow tipped hickory flatbow against a Bear Montana with similiar gpp and they shot they same speed. Compared to a faster bow (Kirk's Bigfoot bows for example!) a straight limbed selfbow will definately be slower.

Design plays a big role, but ultimately the fun factor will win out no matter the performance  

[Kris]

Agree with Mark entirely.  I was just answering the question.  Also agree and know they can very easily shoot faster than I said above.

Use one because you want to and love the concept of something truly real and authentic!

Building a very nice hickory selfbow for my 5 yr. old son right now.  It's turning out really nice; it has about 2" of natural setback. I love the whole process!

Kris
 

Kris

[Brock]

I think all things equal a true selfbow (no backing or laminate) vs a glass backed bow will always be slower...  there are exceptions but having to watch the backs to work to single layer...and making them wide enough or deep enough depending on design to handle the stored energy....and then walking that line on the limb tips remaining small enough to maintain forward momentum upon release but not so small they are going to snap off at end of shot sequence....just a lot of limitations.

selbows are great bows...but they are like night and day.

add rawhide, wood, sinew or horn backing to the same bow and you increase its reliability and performance in most instances.

A closer comparison is say if someone with great skill build an osage or hickory selfbow and backed it with bamboo leaving tips narrow and light...perfect tillering, perfect design for draw length, weight, wood, etc....I think one of those would shoot very comparable to the average glass backed longbow of today.

When it all comes down to it...I really dont care about speed in my bows...if they propel my heavy arrows with authority at the distances I am hunting and shooting...then I am happy.  I am much more concerned with how they feel, how they shoot, how they look and of course how they stir something primal within me (could also be last nights tacos)  

I am trying to finish a hickory selfbow myself...simplicity...using cambium layer as back...overbuilding it for durability...narrow tips....we shall see.

good luck....there are quite a few instances when people have asked similar questions and FPS contest were held at MoJam....some results are in TBB.  Great reading.

I carved a shag bark hickory, it shot nice, nice and slow.  I kept messing with it.  I tried cooking it, trimming it, flattening it.  Finally, I had a really nice, short, 30pound bow to to give to a youngster, that shot it pretty good.  My next one was a true pignut.  I was using it hard, one day it got soaked.  It lost a lot of its cast. So, I sanded it down and let it take a year long nap in a furnace duct.  Now it is 64" and about 62 pounds at 26".  It is at times a little tough to figure how a friend of a friend could send me a chunk of a tree that turns out to be a bow that shoots as good or better than bows that I have spent over $500 and this one costed only the price of shipping and some Minwax spray.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Horserod:
Kirk,  What do you think makes those particular self bows perform better?  Is it the species of wood used? Is it the design? Is it the tiller???  I know there are some very talented guys out there making some great bows.  It would seem to me there is something special........I've seen some very nice bows that should shoot great, but, don't either.  Can you give us "primitive" thinking guys some insight???  Thanks,  Horserod

Ok...Honestly.... there are a lot of people out there building bows that i wouldn't consider a bowyer. the guys in the factories cutting out parts and the guy running the press most likely doesn't know the first thing about the whole process, much less how geometry effects energy storage, or how balancing mass weight in the limbs to the pre-load effects performance.

There are also some gifted artisans out there that  have incredible woodworking skills that take great pride in their work. But... Many of those artists really don't take the time to invest in getting maximum performance in their bows. They get a design they like, and just build them. Some even set up CNC routers to get the product out faster with very consistent results... Some companies specialize in long bows or recurve bows, to stream line their operation too.... is this bad? Not at all... I'd love to have a CNC set up to play with.LOL

I believe the real bowyers are those who can build them all. Especially the self bows, and board bows.  A self bowyer that has the skill to read the wood he's working with, and let it become the bow the wood allows it to be to it's fullest potential has my greatest respect.

Horserod....As much as i respect the self bowyers, and board bowyers, unfortunately even the best materials you can find to do your magic with will never take the tension and compression loads that the composites do. There fore they are going to consistently have a higher potential for better performance.

Without going into a bunch of technical bowyers talk, the key to higher performance without sacrificing smoothness and stability is getting the working portion of the bow to a minimum, and locating the working portion of the limb to maximize the string angle. Of course there is balancing mass weight of the working limb to the pre-load, and balancing the limbs where they work together and stop together. Sometimes refred to as mapping the limbs... But....i can safely say Tiller is the least of it bro... Tiller is simply a measurement from the string to the fades. You can get a perfect tiller on a bow and still have it way out of whack real easy.... that goes for glass bows too btw...

Sorry for getting long winded here. This is kind of a passion for me, more than a job... Kirk

[Bowjunkie]

Some selfbows shoot faster than some glass bows, but they're the exception, not the rule.

I build many kinds of bows... self, laminated all wood, sinew backed, rawhide backed, and laminated wood/glass longbows, recurves and hybrids. I once built 3 d/r longbows of identical profile, length, weight, very similar cross-section... one glass/wood, one bamboo backed osage, and the other bamboo backed yew. The yew/bamboo easily outshot the other two with the osage/bamboo coming in second. Glass allows for more radical profiles, but if the profiles are the same, glass is heavy and slows  limbs down.

By the way, my favorite selfbow is 10 years old this year and has shot many thousands of arrows and still stands straight and proud. With the exception of two sinew-backed bows, I've hunted with nothing but selfbows for 16 years.

[LBR]

When you make selfbows life span isn't a serious matter and I've never been concerned with life span when I build and use a selfbow.

Understood--but I'm speaking from the standpoint of someone who doesn't posess the time or talent to keep a new one on the way at any given time.  I'm too tied up with strings!

Each of my selfbows is a treasure.  Two were gifts from good friends, the other is the first (and only) real selfbow I've ever had a hand in building, plus other friends helped and guided and supervised it's building and some later modifications.  The thought of any of them breaking just kills me.

I loved shooting them--won several tournaments with different ones, including the Howard Hill and the Selfbow Challenge at Twin Oaks.  The BBO I have (thanks Eric!) shoots as well or better than most laminated longbows I've shot.

Maybe one of these days, if I ever regain my sanity and quit spending too many hours a day tinkering with strings, maybe I'll make another bow.

[kagross]

Wow, thanks for all the input guys.  The reason I started the thread is that I'm trying to go traditional.  I have a '58 Bear Alaskan that's 48@28", but I only pull 26", and the bow is only 40# at 26".  I'm a bit concerned that 40# is not enough, and I have a friend with a hickory longbow (selfbow) that I really like that is 50#@26" (too short for him, probably get it for free), so essentially 10 lbs heavier than the Alaskan, but a less-efficient design (maybe, hence the question).  I was wondering if the self-bow would be a step up from the old Alaskan or not.  I know it's hard to tell, because of all the variables with selfbows.  I want to work up a set of woodies for it, and if I'm good enough, hunt with it, if not, I'll use the compound, and keep practicing until next year.

[LongStick64]

I am of the opinion that an expertly made self bow is a true treasure, a completely unique bow. That being said as Kirk states many of us wannabe bowyers have scratched some wood and come up with a decent bow but I would never compare my frankenbows to a real pro. But is sure is a blast.