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Author Topic: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude  (Read 1686 times)

Offline huntnmuleys

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2014, 01:05:00 PM »
we can certainly be our own worst enemies.  

ive certainly seen it, and way more often the elitists are the traditional guys.  and I have never understood why. shoot what you want!
is it September yet??

Offline kill shot

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2014, 01:28:00 PM »
I was a member of two archery clubs. At both clubs it was there. The we and they, us and them thing. Fishing is the same way. I had a guy say that "fly fishing was an elite way to fish. Fly fishing is a traditional way to fish". Myself, I thought catching night crawlers or trapping minnows and crawdads was traditional because traditionally thats what we did. I think elite is in the eye of the beholder. Attitude is everything.

Offline DarkTimber

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2014, 02:09:00 PM »
Really good post.  Even the use of the term "training wheels" comes off as elitest to me and is one of my pet peeves.

One of my best friends uses a compound as well as a long bow.   He's one of the best hunters I've ever been around and I'm confident he could out hunt me if he had to use a rock.  My brother also uses a compound. Spending time hunting with both of them is way more important to me than the number of strings on my bow.

I trully believe successful people will find a way to be successful regardless of the tools they use to achieve that success...in archery and life in general.

Offline gringol

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2014, 02:17:00 PM »
Generally speaking I don't think the term "training wheels" is elitist, just a little ribbing.  Are there elitists? Absolutely, but that sword cuts both ways.  No one group has a monopoly on a-holes.

Offline Chromebuck

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2014, 03:29:00 PM »
I can shoot five X's with a compound and put it away for six months, pick it up and shoot 5 X's.  This is fact...So what...

When I think elitism in this sport it tends to be more of this comparison.

A tweed clad Salmo Salar Tonkin spey fisher is to fishing what a sinew backed osage archer is to toxophily...  Do I have respect for these individuals?  Darn straight!

~CB
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Offline LITTLEBIGMAN

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2014, 03:42:00 PM »
I have a problem with compound shooters bragging they they killed a deer, turkey or bull at 50+ plus yards. This type of behavior or attitude towards what they consider to be fair chase bow hunting is complete BS and will eventually be the end of archery seasons as we know them. I do point that out to them & I don't consider that as having an elitist attitude, all though i am continually accused as such constantly.
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Offline Steve O

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2014, 04:52:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LITTLEBIGMAN:
I have a problem with compound shooters bragging they they killed a deer, turkey or bull at 50+ plus yards. This type of behavior or attitude towards what they consider to be fair chase bow hunting is complete BS and will eventually be the end of archery seasons as we know them. I do point that out to them & I don't consider that as having an elitist attitude, all though i am continually accused as such constantly.
Unfortunately we have not much of a leg to stand on there with movies of Fred Bear, Bean Pearson, Howard Hill, Paul Schafer, Negley, on and on, taking 60+ yards shots with their stickbows. And how about Pope and Young?  They were not really known for their "get close" tactics.

The world record Stone Sheep for 40 some years was taken with a half draw lob shot where Fred could only see the head for goodness sakes...

The forefathers were getting 3' groups practicing at 60 yards, these guys are getting 3" groups with their modern equipment.

Which is better?

Offline killinstuff

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2014, 05:27:00 PM »
Well Jim, I kinda used to get that same feeling about the compounders that took long shots but it made me think.  I read a post on another forum where a guy compound shot a sheep and a caribou at well over 75 yards. I think the Bou was 90. Anyway I was going to jump in and do a little stickbow trashing but than it hit me. The guy was just a REALLY good shoot and if he likes to shoot that far and can pull it off, my hats off to him. There are just as many stickbow guys that shouldn't shoot game at 20 yards as there are compound guys that shouldn't shoot game at 50.  Heck one of those Wensel kids killed running deer at 35 yards in years past. He was a (sorry B, is) a good shot.  If you're a good shot and can kill at 50, have at it. Might not be for you and me but that's our choice.

It's not a team sport and besides the rules the government set we get to set our own rules. Each of us. We are very lucky to be able to do it the way we want to and set our own limits.
lll

Offline Kevin Dill

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2014, 05:44:00 PM »
Steve O is all over this. The 'get really close' ethic is generally a recent development...especially the part that's tied to ethics and judgment of others. It's a popular refrain, but not shared by all. If I could drill an elk at 50 yards with my longbow....yeah! I'm not that good so I don't shoot. The song should say "Know your range and live within it". I've generally found that most aspects of elitism and elitist behavior are tied to judgment of others, and as soon as we tolerate them (or they tolerate us) the comparisons and judgment fade. So does the appearance of elitism.

Offline Pointer

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2014, 05:58:00 PM »
In my experience its mostly from our ranks and that's unfortunate. I've never had a compounder say anything to me that was derogatory but I personally know some trad guys that made it so uncomfortable for the compounders at a range I used to shoot at that those fellas just stopped coming around on weekends altogether.

Offline SKITCH

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2014, 06:01:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Steve O is all over this. The 'get really close' ethic is generally a recent development...especially the part that's tied to ethics and judgment of others. It's a popular refrain, but not shared by all. If I could drill an elk at 50 yards with my longbow....yeah! I'm not that good so I don't shoot. The song should say "Know your range and live within it". I've generally found that most aspects of elitism and elitist behavior are tied to judgment of others, and as soon as we tolerate them (or they tolerate us) the comparisons and judgment fade. So does the appearance of elitism.
Well put Mr. Dill!!   It has to start with someone!!
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Offline ishoot4thrills

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2014, 06:12:00 PM »
Elitists?

I see way more elitists in the trad group than anywhere else. Yeah, my compound buds and I like to rib each other in good fun, but it's the trad hunters that get me riled up. Mostly the ones who insist that their way is the ONLY way. Stuff like: you gotta shoot wood arrows only, you can't shoot 3 fingers under, you can't gap shoot, you can't use a GPS, you can't take your cell phone hunting with you, you can't use tree stands, and on and on and on. And if you do these things, then you ain't a trad hunter. That's what alienates us from the rest of the bowhunting world.
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Offline Alexander Traditional

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2014, 06:36:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ishoot4thrills:
Elitists?

I see way more elitists in the trad group than anywhere else. Yeah, my compound buds and I like to rib each other in good fun, but it's the trad hunters that get me riled up. Mostly the ones who insist that their way is the ONLY way. Stuff like: you gotta shoot wood arrows only, you can't shoot 3 fingers under, you can't gap shoot, you can't use a GPS, you can't take your cell phone hunting with you, you can't use tree stands, and on and on and on. And if you do these things, then you ain't a trad hunter. That's what alienates us from the rest of the bowhunting world.
I already posted,but this sums up what I had to say way better. I see people getting jumped on all the time for what they chose to use. I don't understand what makes someone else such an expert on what other people decide to do,but if you point out something they may be doing that isn't all that traditional,boy they sure don't want to hear about it then.

Offline goingoldskool

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2014, 06:43:00 PM »
Most all my friends and hunting buddies shoot compounds and up until a couple years ago, I was right with them....  Compounds, for me, got too automatic.  It got too easy and it wasn't fun for me anymore.  

I needed a new challenge and I have a friend that loaned me his long bow for a few months while he was recovering from surgery and I haven't picked my compound up since....  

I now get SOOO much more satisfaction from a well shot arrow at 15-20yrds as I did from a much longer shot with wheels.

As long as folks are enjoying themselves, have at it!  I'm behind them 100%.

Rodd
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Offline bendotwood

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2014, 07:16:00 PM »
I think all groups poke fun at each other.  The gun guys make fun of us Robin Hoods, we make fun of guys with training wheels on thier bows, and so on.  It's all just fun between friends.  Like the football and cross country teams joking back and forth at school.  Or mountain bikers and triathaletes poking fun at eachother.  Or Chevy vs Ford.  

It's all just fun, everyone still enjoys their respective choices.
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2014, 07:24:00 PM »
With practice and a modern compound loaded with all the goodies, a great release and a rangefinder, 60 yards is not unethical.

The last deer I shot with a compound was at 47 yards, a very nice 8pt for my area. And that was before the drop away rests became common. It was that exact event that made me finally jump into traditional archery with both feet. I'd kicked going traditional around for a couple years prior, but after the ease of killing deer at 40-50 yards with compounds became a reality, I sold off or gave away everything compound I owned. Killing antlerless deer at 20-30 yards became to feel like more of a chore than a fun hunt.

For my own personal reasons, I didn't stop using compounds for what anybody thought of me as a hunter. I don't hunt for other people. Hell, I don't respect what half the people say about serious political issues. I sure don't care what they think about what bow or rifle I hunt with. I made the switch for myself. I became bored with compounds and killing deer with them. I decided that it'd be a lot more fun to see how close I could get, rather than how far I could shoot.

I think it's for this reason that we're seeing the growth in popularity of hunting with traditional bows. As we age as a national group, (hunter demographics are getting grayer by the year) we have literally 1,000,000's of bowhunters who've "been there-done that" with compounds over the last 30 years and they're simply looking for something to make bowhunting more fun and more of a challenge again. The growth in traditional archery is going to come from existing bowhunters, some of whom decide to switch as they decide that using compounds isn't much fun anymore. Why mock future traditional bowhunters?

If you notice, you don't see many experienced traditional archers who switch to compounds, however you see lots of experienced compound shooters who switch to traditional archery. As far as crossbows, I think anyone who has any health issue who will benefit by using a crossbow so it keeps him/her in the woods with family and friends is a great thing. After my shoulder surgery, I'd use a crossbow if I could never draw a conventional bow again. If I couldn't bow hunt, I'd probably sell off my land and 10 hunters would "lose their spot". As far as crossbows for healthy, able bodied men, I view them as more a kin to steroids in sports. I've sold crossbows, I know people who use crossbows and I'm not saying ban crossbows because that horse has been walking out of the barn for a decade and it wants to walk out, but I don't care for crossbows for my personal use, unless it was the lone option. Not my cup of tea, however I think they should be legal, much like I don't like AR rifles, but I don't think they should be banned from use.

It's for the same reason that more compound shooters are switching to traditional archery that more and more hunters are looking to antler point restrictions to up the challenge of a deer hunt. Antler restrictions aren't about getting a trophy to brag about, it's about the quality of the hunt itself and the fun, like with traditional bows. It's the same as with what bow I shoot, I do that for my own soul, I don't care what others think. The same is true with hunting in a more naturally age diverse deer herd. It's social mis-management that has caused some places like Michigan to have an unnaturally young deer herd, to suit decades of social demands from 750,000 deer hunters. But unlike what bow someone uses, what deer and how many of what deer neighbors kill does impact your hunt. Like a smoker in a restaurant or someone dumping a chemical in a lake, the actions of one landowner can have a big impact on others. If a camp kills 10 yearling bucks every year and fills every antlerless tag it can get, well then it does matter to other neighbors, what deer, and how many, someone shoots.

It used to be, before we knew so much about deer and deer hunting, and before deer herds got bigger, that killing a deer with a recurve or longbow was quite the accomplishment and rarity. But now, with our wealth of knowledge of all things deer, and relatively plentiful deer numbers (compared to decades back-in many area's) killing a yearling buck with a traditional bow isn't that difficult for more and more hunters. We know so much about deer now, compared to what we knew in the 1970's that it's like comparing the old 13" black and white TV we had at camp back then to todays smart phone. Our knowledge of scent control, thermals, deer calls, photo-period, human pressure, home ranges, etc, etc is light years ahead of what we knew when we left the cabin door in 1978.

And for those who hunt with a compound or crossbow, killing a yearling buck is only a matter of a few sits over a bait pile or feeder and it's like shooting squirrels off a bird feeder with a scoped .22 rifle. It's for this reason that we'll see more bag limit changes in the future vs. weapons choice restrictions, since DNR's want butts in the woods. And believe it or not, we as fellow sportsmen want butts in the woods too, otherwise the anti's will crush us with money raised and spent, and in future elections involving long established, conventional hunting seasons.

Below is some highlights of a well known study done by U of W. From my years of working with sportsmen on the retail end, my opinion is that the findings are spot on, with hunters floating around in the later stages...

From 1975 to 1980, groups of over 1,000 hunters in Wisconsin were studied, surveyed, and written about by Professors Robert Jackson and Robert Norton, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. The results of their studies form a widely accepted theory of hunter behavior and development. Where are you now? Where would you like to be?

Six Stages of Hunter Development

The longer you hunt; you will probably find that your attitude and behavior will evolve. There are six distinct stages of hunter development. You may not pass through each of these stages and you may not progress through them in this exact order.

Stage 1. Shooting Stage

The impulse here is to get off a shot quickly, usually at the first animal that appears. This eagerness can lead to bad decisions that could result in the wrong animal being chosen, a poor shot being taken that wounds the animal or even a shot that endangers others. Target practice, good mentoring and more experience will lead most hunters out of this stage quickly.

Stage 2. Limiting Out Stage

This hunter wants to always bag the limit. This may cause a hunter to take unsafe shots or misidentify targets in the zeal to limit out. More experience and hunting with mature hunters will lead hunters out of this stage.

Stage 3. Trophy Stage

Success is judged by quality, not quantity. The hunter is very selective and will pass on many opportunities that do not match the desired trophy characteristics. Many trophy hunters focus on big game. The hunter’s patience and commitment must be highly evolved.

Stage 4. Method Stage

Here, the process and challenge of hunting becomes the primary focus of the hunter. A more challenging method, such as using a (traditional) bow, muzzleloader, or handgun may be chosen. The hunter may choose to stalk or still hunt, rather than sit in a stand next to a feeder.

Stage 5. Sportsman Stage

The total experience of the hunt is what is important to the sportsman. What animal is being hunted, how it is being hunted, the immersion into nature and the companionship of who you are hunting with, all combine into creating a more sophisticated appreciation of the hunt.

Stage 6. “Give-Back” Stage

At this point the hunter is motivated by the desire to pass on the proper hunting values, safety skills and responsible attitudes to others. They want to preserve our hunting heritage by introducing new hunters to the sport in the most rewarding manner. The hunter may choose to join a conservation organization that improves habitat through wildlife management and promotes hunting.

Offline atatarpm

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2014, 07:33:00 PM »
I choose to shot a trad bow to master myself not to master others
Atatarpm   "Traditional Archery is a mastery of one's self ; not of things."
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Offline Ron Vought

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2014, 07:48:00 PM »
I just hand a compound shooter my longbow and watch as he releases the arrow and the smile that follows. I think some of the high tech crowd is getting bored with their equipment and are really interested to try and shoot longbows/recurve but too afraid to try it. Once they try shooting a traditional bow they understand the passion.

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2014, 07:57:00 PM »
Who was it that said something like, "Not all compound shooters are jerks, but every jerk I ever met out hunting was carrying one."?  The same could be said for some of the early season muzzleloader guys in Iowa.  They even scare the good muzzleloader hunters.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2014, 08:13:00 PM »
Ron,
It was that "being afraid to try it" than held me back for years. In truth, I wasn't afraid, but I was intimidated by traditional archery because I hadn't shot or strung a recurve since the 1970's.

It was on the suggestion from Ibow (Tradgang member) who suggested I go see Tom at the local traditional shop, now Blackdog Outfitters, that I finally had someone to answer all my very basic, new to trad questions. And I had a ton of them. I'm not ashamed to admit that I didn't even know how to string a bow, let alone figure out what arrow to use, before Tom showed me.

And that dovetails back to what I was trying to get at in the previous post. There's lots of impressive compound hunters out that that will become impressive traditional hunters, once they get someone to show them the ropes. There's no reason to mock them. The term "training wheels" isn't becoming of any traditional archer who uses it.

There's a lot of guys out there who'd love to try traditional archery. But many have no nearby shops that carry much trad gear and in most cases, with "macho" men especially, many guys don't want to walk into a sport shop and proclaim that they know next to nothing about a sport or of a different aspect of a sport they already know, but they really want to learn. More often, it will take someone to "volunteer" to teach someone about traditional archery, once the cue is picked up.

I saw the same with fishermen when I owned the fishing store. There were lots of bass/lake fishermen that wanted to try trout fishing, but you could tell they didn't know where to start and were intimidated by trout fishing in a river. It's sad that many of those guys probably never went trout fishing, even though in their head, they wanted to try it, but didn't because they were afraid to ask the questions any newbie would ask. While I helped many, many new people get into trout fishing, there were some that you could tell could never let their "man pride" to ask such basic questions as to show that they were novices. A real shame.

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