VIEWPOINT-Elitist Attitude

[Bowwild]

I've been in archery for 45 years (not counting the early teens of just plinking around). I shot recurves for the first 6 years and then compounds for the next 34. I've been shooting recurves again since 2010 and also occasionally a compound.

I point out this longevity for this reason:  While I don't consider this elitism I have read lots of people exhibit disdain for the compound but I have never heard a compound person trash the recurve or longbow.  It is common to read "training wheels", vertical x-bow, etc., even on these pages.

My use of the recurve stirs nostalgic emotions of my early days in archery more than any other emotion. Frankly, as corny as this is going to "sound" the use of the recurve increases my already strong affection for archery.

[Richie]

The majority of my hunting friends shoot wheelie bows. They have all invited me to hunt one guy has even offered up a spot where he knows I could get a close enough shot with my long bow. They all respect the way I hunt.

[Leland]

I've found it's not the equipment in the persons hand that creates the attitude,but rather the ego that person carries with them.I've never looked down on anyone,but I've walked away from folks who tried to tell me their way was better.I'll shoot beside ANY archer all day long.
Leland

[Walt Francis]

Some shoot a bow.  Others shoot a compound.  Still others shoot an arrow-gun.  Many, many, more use guns that fire bullets. They are all hunters.  I have found that ones hunting ethics has little correlation to the weapon used, but a significant correlation to their character.  I hunt with anybody who has similar ethics as myself, regardless of the weapon used.  

That said, why is hunting one of the few sports that wants one to accept every change in technology and still claim it is the same?  If one is involved with tennis (or many other sports) and somebody decides to use a mechanized serving machine that, launces the ball at 300 mph, within +/- an inch of its intended location, with 99.99% certainty, is one expected to recognize the "progressive changes" as the same sport?  One of the basic tenets of tennis has changed.  How about allowing the pitcher to use a pitching machine that he can crank up the speed of the ball to 210 mph with exact placement of every pitch.  Is dropping the ball into the machine still pitching?  Rail on me all you want, but when you use a machine that doubles the performance and requires aids (trigger) to operate, it is no longer the same sport.  

Are they hunters?  Yes!  

Are they bowhunters? I do not think they are.  

If pointing out the the obvious makes me an elitist, so be it.  Frankly, I don't much care what you call me for telling the truth.

[D.Ellis]

Excellent post Walt    
Darcy

[Kevin Dill]

Originally posted by Walt Francis:
That said, why is hunting one of the few sports that wants one to accept every change in technology and still claim it is the same?.....................  Rail on me all you want, but when you use a machine that doubles the performance and requires aids (trigger) to operate, it is no longer the same sport.  

Are they hunters?  Yes!  

Are they bowhunters? I do not think they are.  

You won't hear me railing on you Walt. I'm no man of 'all you can eat technology' in our sport. I disagree with most of it, and can't relate to some of it. The things that our 50 states call 'bows' don't look like a bow to me...but they carry that definition and I guess the water under the bridge isn't going back up-hill...even if I wish it could. I personally suspect that some of the elitism is really more about anger and frustration of a few, vs superiority-thinking by many. One guy in a crowd says something derogatory (about a bow) and the whole entire crowd is labeled as 'a bunch of elitist jerks'... which we know isn't even close to accurate.

I didn't use to tolerate earrings in men, excessive tattoos, hybrid longbows, clickers, stoners and butt-out tools. I guess I still don't prefer any of them, but I no longer spend any time railing about them. Maybe I'd be labeled an elitist if I said I still prefer to use good nav skills over a gps...I don't know. But I do think the elitist thing goes away when guys stop making comparisons (and judgments) about a man's qualities and character based solely on his main weapon.

I've met some awfully nice people who I probably would have disdained not too many years ago. That said, I'm admittedly more comfortable knowing my son-in-law has no 'ink' or facial hardware. I'm just me...and trying to get better before my own tag gets punched.    

[bruinman]

Exactly Walt. I have been avoiding commenting on this post becuse I frankly couldnt figure out how to say how I felt about it. Well you did it for me, and nailed it!! Thanks

[Mojostick]

Elitism-
Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

I do enjoy Walt's analogy, it is a good one. While I don't want to always play devil advocate, I do want us to have an honest debate too.

Looking at the above definition, who's the elitist?

The truth is, I'm not sure states have a "bow season". Most states I'm aware of have an "archery season". That's totally different than a "bow" season.

Secondly, the basic design concept of the cross "bowed" weapon in question has been around since 5000 BC, so we aren't honest when we call it a "change" or "new".

Lots of things are "new". Laminated bows are new. Aluminum is new. Carbon is new. Goretex is new. Takedown bows are new. A takedown with a fast flight string hurling an arrow at nearly 190fps is new. In the grand scheme, even plaid is "new", when considering the historical arch, no pun intended.

Given what elitism is, it very well may be that many traditional archers consider themselves as "the elite" of the sport of "bow hunting", myself included.

Just something to chew on.

[Whip]

I don't judge someone based on the weapon they carry.  In fact, two of the people that I hunt with most often carry compounds and I have and will continue to hunt with them anywhere.  But that is only because they have high ethical standards and respect for the game we are after.

They hunt the same way I do,  taking only close and ethical shots. They challenge themselves and treasure bowhunting just as I do.  They scout the woods and practice with their equipment.  They improve habitat and work to become better hunters year round.

What frustrates many of us is the unending advance of technology and the general attitude of many that the easier way is always better.  Shoot farther with less effort and practice.  Kill more,  fill your tags, and get back home early.  Whatever it takes to make it easier is the path many seem to take.

That's not the way I hunt and I don't relate to those that do.  It has nothing to do with the equipment that is carried and everything to do with the attitude of the hunter.  But I think it is safe to say that the easier is better crowd gravitates toward more and more advanced weaponry.

As technology continues unabated in our archery seasons I can't help but wonder where it will led us.  Although here in my home state the game department currently wants deer numbers reduced we are still dealing with a limited resource.  As hunters become more and more efficient success rates here continue to climb.  Will there come a time when our generous seasons and limits must be reduced?  

It is hard to deny that technology has changed bow hunting dramatically over the past 40 years.  And the advance seems to be gaining speed rather than slowing down.  I recall reading many years ago that compounds had advanced about as far as they could and there was little yet to be gained in their evolution.  Oh how wrong that proved to be!  

Can anyone really tell me what bowhunting will look like 40 years from now?  Will it be anything like the sport we enjoy today,  or will we ultimately lose what we have?  Will seasons have been reduced to two weeks each year in order to accommodate the efficiency of the weapons used?

To me,  the difference boils down to those who treasure our sport for the challenge it provides versus those who "Stack 'em and whack' em".  Does it make me elitist to think I am different from them?  I guess maybe it does.  But it has nothing to do with equipment and everything to do with attitude.

[Mojostick]

We have to establish if being "elite" is even a negative or pejorative. Is being "elite" a bad thing? If so, why? Or why not?

Should MLB ban the "All Star Game" because players not selected may be offended? Would the Bin Laden raid have turned out differently if we'd have sent in the Delta Kappa paintball team versus the elite Seals?

There's a major difference being elite and snobbery. I suspect everyone wants to be a part of the elite and nobody wants to be deemed a snob.

The history of the word snob is interesting. "The word "snobbery" came into use the first time in England during the 1820s. It was said to have derived from the habit of many Oxford and Cambridge colleges of writing sine nobilitate (without nobility) or s.nob. next to the names of ordinary students on examination lists in order to distinguish them from their aristocratic schoolmates."

I doubt many here would want to associate themselves with nobility or aristocrats. So the lines of definition we're trying to walk is sometimes rather fine.

[Recurve50 LBS]

I've been shooting traditional bows for some time now. I started out shooting a compound but a friend of mine back then was shooting and hunting with a longbow and it interested me. Once I tried shooting his bow I was hooked and just had to get my own traditional bow.my first bow was a 3 piece recurve. I have moved on to shooting only traditional bows. My compound is collecting dust. I like the simplicity of traditional archery. Hitting the woods carrying  minimal equipment weight and most important to me, way less GADGETS that every compound and cross bow shooter carries into the woods.

Now I'm going to say something taboo here but I also belong to another hunting web site that mostly concentrates on fishing and hunting in my home state. The attitude to most their towards Traditional Archers is positive and mostly welcome. BUT I have seen some GADGET shooters call Traditional shooters snobs, and elitists.

Hey I don't care what you shoot. As long as your hunting method and choice of equipment is legal and you take the time to practice with your equipment I have no issues with you.

In closing I do not like going to archery shoots where traditional bows, compounds and cross bows are all thrown into the mix because the Gadget Guys/Gals spend too much time looking through binoculars then range finders and binoculars again before coming to full draw and holding their draw for 5 minutes before they shoot a single arrow, and it's the same for EVERY shot they take. They take multiple shots at each target and go through the same scenario for each shot. Hey man the target hasn't moved just let the arrow fly already!

[bruinman]

I dont think there is anything wrong with a compound, or crossbow or rifle, or handgun. All are great hunting tools. I do not consider the coumpound to be a bow. I think like Walt said, it is a different method of hunting all together. Nothing wrong with it, other than it should be called compound hunting.

[Kevin Dill]

I think what we're talking about may be more a matter of interpretation, vs an accepted definition. Being considered an elite individual is generally a compliment of regard for skills and accomplishments...abilities. On the other hand, elitism (interpretation here remember) smacks more of a self-pronunciation of being an 'elite', either by regard of one's own skills and abilities...or by association with others who share a similar viewpoint. Some folks actually enjoy thinking of themselves as a member of an elite group, whether that's the reality or just the interpretation.


I've seen more than my share of elitist bowhunters and archers carrying equipment from selfbows to the most modern bows available. The weapon isn't the key thing...nor does the presence or absence of technology indicate whether one is elite. It might indicate how one prefers to hunt, and that might be differently than others. Elitism to me is the simple conveyance of an attitude of superiority (and comes off sometimes as snobbery) which inevitably ends up in a negative interpretation.


I can end this post by saying that many people who are truly considered elite by their peers often display genuine humility and disregard for the label of 'elite'. Those are the people I most enjoy spending time with, and there usually isn't the slightest hint of elitism, disdain or snobbishness in them. They are outstanding people; outstanding at what they do, and any descriptive of being 'elite' is totally off their radar.

[bruinman]

I can agree with all of that Kevin. I think we got a little off track since the topic was an elitest attitude. I think some of this has to do with when you actually started getting your feet wet in bowhunting. I am sure many on here started with a compound. I myself started in 1968, and I'm sure there are many on here that started long before me, so some of it might be a matter of perception. I do not consider myself to be any better than a compound shooter,only different.

[ChuckC]

No matter the endeavor, we as people tend to look at it from our own perspective and give it credit (or not) accordingly.

I don't hate crossbows or compounds, but.. having experienced a fair amount in my young 59 years, I will say, in MY view, there is no comparison between each.  They all do similar things in different ways.  And. .  there is no question that there is a built in ease or dummying down in each step.  

But, even with that, so what.  I shoot my bows because that's what I do.  You shoot yours (bow, mechanical bows, rifles, whatever).  I have certain goals and expectations for each outing.  They are NOT the same as yours, and certainly not the same as a rifle toter.  Again.. so what ?

Because one thing is more difficult to achieve, takes more practice, more time etc, does not make that person elite.  It just is what it is and the tack I will pursue involves sticks and strings.

ChuckC

[chase perry]

I don't look down on anyone that wants to enjoy hunting through the myriad of means to do so.  Anyone that spends money in hunting and its peripheral industries is empowering the lobby that preserves our right to hunt.  For example, if a guy sees a crossbow, says "cool", and is interested in hunting for the first time in his life, this is a good thing.  My Dad took his compound out several times last season, but most days elected to go with his longbow; he's the best hunter I know by a country mile.  I haven't hunted with a compound since 2009, but prior to my switch the man that became my traditional mentor would challenge me to take off the "training wheels."  I wasn't offended by this because my skin is opaque, and I could tell he meant it in jest.  My issue, as a Texas hunter, is with the Texas Parks and Wildlife permitting crossbow hunters to hunt in the October Archery season.  Even a surface dive into the capabilities of the modern crossbow should reveal that this weapon has no place in the archery only season.  Should they get a head start on the rifle hunter?  I'm sure that could be arranged; Texas has a very long season.  Prior to September, 1 2009 the law would permit crossbows to accommodate those with physical impairments, specifically upper limb disabilities. That incarnation of the law was very reasonable, but I would have gone one step further to include paraplegics with full upper body mobility.  They are immensely challenged, and deserve that privilege.

[Jack Hoyt 75]

I was a long time compound bow shooter and till own one.  I hesitated to get involved in Trad due to know friends doing it and fear of the unknown.  When I finally made the switch my only regret was not doing it sooner!  I still own and shoot both types of bows and am falling more and more in love with traditional archery.

My point is that if "wheels" guys look down on a Trad archery it is out of ignorance of Trad and no understanding of the history or archery not necessarily just hating on Trad or being cocky.  

Be nice, try to educate or explain the challenge or Trad, lead by example and open their eyes to how much fun it is and their minds and attitudes will follow. Atleast that is my opionion.

Remember, most compound shooters don't even know that 100's of bowyers still make Trad bows, Tradgang exists, clubs and org. are out there, rendezvous still happen or how fun stump shooting can be.  If they did they would join us in all the fun.

I personally try to find the good in any archery guy no matter what they shoot.

[jrbows]

I only recall one direct instance of this and it was from another traditional shooter. He saw me with my longbow and said "Oh another stick-bow shooter" then took a step back and acted offended that he wasn't the only traditional guy on the range 99.9% of the people I have met anywhere at a traditional shoot extend the hand holding their bow for you to check out if you act interested while they reach for your bow, this guy clutched his bow to his chest until I offered mine then reluctantly handed his over, this may not have been intentional on his part it's just the "vibe" I got. Shoot what you want, don't look down on anybody who  hunts the right way with whatever their weapon of choice is and if we really cared what people thought would we be shooting these things?

[jon boy]

I been shooting and making bows for 25 years.  I think the so called elites are not as bad now as in years past. I remember putting fast flight on my first bows and that was terrible and was told and read all the bows would break.  Didn't happen.  Then they went after carbon arrows even when they were heavier than their woodies.  Now most people shoot them. Just be glad you live in a country were you can hunt and use your best judgement on equipment and not live to please someone else.

[GreyGoose]

To me, "elite" has more to do with the mastery of the equipment and techniques chosen, and not the choice itself.