are my arrows weak or stiff? please help. possible EUREKA moment!!

[ozy clint]

hey guys i started tuning my 58# border recurve (see my signiture). my first bareshaft vs BH session resulted in the bareshaft consisently hitting about 2 feet to the left of the BH at 35-40 yards. i'm right handed.
note, i draw 26" amo.

i was using the arrows that i used to shoot out of my bob lee recurve which was 57#@28". which are axis 400's. 30 5/16" BOP to nock, 250gr point, 100gr insert and a 2 1/2" 2020 footing.

now, i believe they are too stiff, and here's why-
1- obviously bareshafts are hitting left.
2- the fly better out of this bow than out of the bob lee which was 1# lighter and not near as efficient.
3- i've been through this with the bob lee and trimming until they are too short didn't make any difference.

now i'm sure alot of people wouldn't recommend trying 500's with this same arrow setup but i'm at a loss with trying to tune and a lighter spine is the only thing i haven't tried yet. so i was going to buy some 500's and give it a go.

the only other possiblity that crossed my mind is this- could they be so weak as to cause a consistent stiff indication, even out of the bob lee? i'm doubtful of this because trimming them until they were too short didn't help the problem.

i'm coming to the conclusion that perhaps i need alot weaker arrows than what everyone else seems to use or think i should use.

[dbd870]

Yeah, they fly like a stiff arrow but I would have thought they would be just the opposite. Have you tried a light point, say 125gr?

[Orion]

Given the weight you have up front, I think .500s will be too soft with the same point weight.  

What happens to the bare shafts at closer range, say 20 yards? Any small error in form will throw the arrow off substantially at 30-40 yards.  Even a slight crosswind at that distance.

One other thought, is your bow cut past center?  Axis are very small diameter shafts. If the bow is cut a lot past center, they can be pointing inside the string rather than outside of it.  When this happens, they do strange things with a finger release.  Could be bouncing off the side plate.  That would make some noise though.
 

[awbowman]

Dealing with higher FOCs can cause you to pull your hair out.

[ranger 3]

I would try a lighter point, just to see can't hurt.

[wingnut]

I would force them to be weaker by using a heavier point.  This will confirm if they are weak for stiff.  I've had too many fool me with a false stiff or weak.

Mike

[JimB]

I agree with trying a lighter point.I always verify with point weight before any cutting.In fact,I would start with a 100 gr point to see if anything moves,then go from there.If nothing changes then,you are probably going in the wrong direction.

[KAZ]

I'm in the change weight to gain "control" of the shaft camp... Then figure out your final solution. I have the full range of arrow tip weights (75-300grain), plus I have nock couplers that allow me to change that end or add wraps, etc... I agree also that high F.O.C. can make things a lttle more tricky as you need to ensure nock point is fairly optimized before you finalize your setup...

[ozy clint]

the bow is cut 5/16" past center but i have padded out the riser to ensure the arrow sits a little outside of center. the hex6 limbs are really torsionally stiff. could it be that they just don't allow as much sideways flex on release resulting in a stiffer reaction than 'normal'?
i shall try some 100gr points and report back.

[NBK]

Ozy,
When bareshafting its a pain to shorten shafts or add point weight to confirm results.  You've been shooting a long time so I'm sure you could pull this off...
Stand at fifteen yards and purposely overdraw a few inches and check the flight, then also short draw a few inches and compare.
I too was worried about the stiff shaft hitting the riser so I short drew and got an even more pronounced stiff reaction, overdrew and got better flight, thus ruling out striking the riser.  Give it a try, you're a good enough shot to do this.

[JamesKerr]

I would recommend trying a lighter point. It sounds to me like you are getting a false stiff reading by an overly weak arrow. I would definately not recommend the 500 spine arrow. I myself shoot a 60# @ 28" black widow longbow and my draw length is 27.5" my arrows that tune perfect from it are arrow dynamics trad lites with 72 grain brass inserts and 200 grain points cut to 29 3/8". The spine on those shafts is .375 but they are tapered so they are pretty close to a 400 spine. I would definately think cutting the shaft down some or a lighter point would help. The only thing with your arrow that might and I mean might make it stiff is the 2 1/2" footing but that would not be the first thing I would change. The other thing to watch for is torque in the string or bowhand as it can cause all sorts of weird readings when tuning.

[ozy clint]

i tried 100gr points today and it seemed to get worse.
bareshafts land left but are nock left in the target.

surely you can't go from overly weak giving a false stiff reading (250gr points) to stiff reading (100gr points) with only 150gr difference in point weight. that's a very narrow window.

tuning  

nothing seems to change whatever i do.
340's maybe? would a 400 cut to 28" act as stiff as a full length 340? i've been down to 28" and similar results.

[sticksnstones]

I've seen a few guys with bows cut way past center have problems switching to smaller diameter shafts. I'd make the sideplate thicker for a little  testing before I messed with the arrow. I'd say bring it all the way to center and see how it goes, then reduce back past center to tune.

Since your true draw is 26" and your BOP is over 30" that means you have 4" plus tip length hanging out past the riser. Seems like that could play a little havoc too.

On a side note, I shot a few 2020s into some plate steel on Friday night, I can cut what is still straight into 2.5" sections and send them to you if you want them for footings. PM me an address if you to.
Good luck!
Thom

[R. W. Mackey]

Hey Ozzy, I have a Border not quite as much weight as you
But close enough. My set up is a Victory 350 shaft 30.5"
Long, I have a 29" draw. 100 gr. brass inserts, 250 gr. head
Up front. I have shot this same set up in Africa 2 times, amazing results.
  I think your under spined, I know I could never get your set up to work for me. Try simplifying your tuning. Just get the bare shaft shooting good at 5 yards, you got to get it right up front before you try it at longer ranges. I never worry about
How it flies at  longer ranges,I never shoot that far. But if you get it flying right at close range it will fly good at longer ranges as well.
  You said the knock was left when you shoot, that's telling you it's a weak shaft. For a right hand shooter, stiff is knock right, weak is knock left. I'm sure you know this, but sometimes we
Tend to overlook the obvious.
  Get a stiffer shaft, start out at 5 yards and see which way shaft hits. Go from there.
  RW

[Friend]

Would suspect that a Victory HV300 would permit favorable results.

Note: a HV300 with 400 gns up front may yield a total wt near 625 gns.

[ozy clint]

nock left is weak. hitting left is stiff.
  :confused:
i'm going to try some 340's i have. i'll continue to trim my 400's and see if they come good. it would be handy if the 400 worked since it would be a little lighter than it is now at 680gr. a 340 is going to give me a heavier arrow than i'd prefer for this setup.

[Hud]

http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/

I prefer a paper test, rather than a bale, etc because of the possibility of a false reading. You should be about 6 ft. from the paper, on a frame, (wood or cardboard) suspended or mounted in front of the bale or backstop. You are right a left nock is stiff for most RH shooting.

However, First the nocking point needs to be correct. Then sprinkle tac powder on the sight windows in front and back of the rest to make sure the shaft does not hit anywhere. Then follow the procedure in the link. Although it is for wood arrows, testing is the same.
 
Some might consider using four different length arrows (4 sets of three), and each trimmed 1/4", (29", 29.25, 29.5, 29.75 and 30")try to keep your weight setup simple to add and subtract. One size bushing, and three or four different weighted points.

Remember, if you shoot a bare shaft next to one fletched with the same length, and weight, the stiff bare shaft will impact the paper, to the left aiming at the same spot and weak will be to the right of the fletched arrow. The stiffer bare shaft (shorter shaft) will be furthest to the left. The tear in the paper will be to left, as the nock is left of the point hole.

[Hud]

One more point, the 2" 2020 reinforced tip makes the shaft stiffer than your shaft with just the bushing, and point. You might be better off with a longer bushing, if available, or just more or less weighted point.

[ozy clint]

i just tried a full length 340 with the 100gr insert, 250gr point and same footing. bareshaft only, no time before dark to fletch another one. the bareshaft flies better than the 400 i've been shooting. windage is good and not hitting far left like the 400. it generally flies nock right on route to target at 10 yards.
will fletch one up tonight and shoot bare v BH tomorrow.

thanks for the help guys...

[ozy clint]

i've got a 400 here that is 27.5" long. this is my minimum length, so i'll try it too