are my arrows weak or stiff? please help. possible EUREKA moment!!

[R. W. Mackey]

Ozy, there are many reasons your arrow could be hitting
Left, only one reason the knock will fly left. Just tune the arrow
To fly slightly stiff at close range, fletch the shaft and the arrow will fly perfect for you.
  If your worried about the total shaft weight, consider a lighter
Shaft like the Victory. It's plenty stiff and you can get some
Obscene FOC readings. They work, guaranteed.....

RW

[jackdaw]

I'm having almost exactly the same problem with a current longbow. Im paying close attention..

[ozy clint]

i shot the 27.5" 400 today, fletched with a BH. it shoots about 1' to the right of where i'm aiming. i don't have a bareshaft to compare this to.
i tried a full length 340 and compared to the 30" 400 it flys worse.

now i'm confused. why would a 27.5" 400 shoot the the right of a 30" 400? i just made it stiffer!! this is what frustrates me, i change something and the result seems to be opposite of what it should be.
maybe the right tune is somewhere between 30" and 27.5"???

the 340 and the 400 both seem to come out of the bow nock right then straigten up after 10 yards. they fishtail at long range though.

i'm really pulling my hair out here.
it doesn't at all feel like there's any progress being made. results seem so random after changing variables and certainly not like the text books- "change this and this will happen"
   :mad:

[ozzyshane]

Clint i thing your are way under spined cut that 340 down .Unless you have build that border out to center shot from the 5/16 under with all that weight out the front you will have spine probs with the 340 at 30inch .
What i found was when the shaft was under spine with all the UFOC they did strange things .
Hope it helps Thanks Shane

[ozy clint]

the arrow is sitting outside center. i've padded it out with 3 layers of velcro.

thanks for the oppinion on the 340. i'll trim and shoot and trim and shoot it tomorrow. "strange things" sums it up in a nutshell. i'm going to have a eureka moment soon and i'll know for future where to begin with spine. sounds as if i've always been too weak.
thanks shane.

[lilbobby]

Ozzy ran these numbers on an older Stu caculator, didn't exactly know all particulars.
BBD, 58#@28" draw 26", -3/16 center, FF 16 strand, 70 Dyn. Spine:
Axis 340, 28.25", 250 PW, 100 I.W., 34g F.W., 12 N.W., 3x5 feathers, 70.8 Dyn. Spine
If you draw 58#@26" arrow would be 27.750. The 3/16's past center is the lowest the calculator would go. I had a BBD ulta w/hex 4 limbs 26" draw, I had to increase spine (600 to 500). Good  Luck!

[McDave]

One thing that might help your confusion (or maybe just make you more confused) is understanding the difference between bare shaft flight and fletched arrow flight.  Throughout my archery life, I've heard hints that shooting a stiffer shaft may (or may not) move the POI of a fletched arrow to the right, even though it will always move the POI of a bare shaft (baring deflection off the strike plate) to the left.

I heard this first from Fred Asbell, second from a bowyer friend who was watching me shoot, and most recently from Rick Welch.  I ignored the others, thinking they had either misspoken or I misheard.  However, Rick proved it to me on his range by having me blind shoot arrows of different spine and noting where they hit.

My theory for this anomaly is that a weaker spined shaft bends more when it is shot, as we all know.  This is exhibited with a bare shaft as a nock left flight, which generally results in a POI to the right of the point of aim.  A fletched shaft has essentially the same initial response to being shot.  However, the fletches quickly correct the nock left condition and the arrow proceeds on more or less of a straight path to the target.  However, the path for a weaker shaft is left of the path for a stiffer shaft, since the weaker shaft had more initial deflection, which sometimes results in a POI for a weaker fletched arrow  to the left of the POI for a stiffer fletched arrow.  And sometimes not, depending on how quickly the fletched arrow recovers from the initial nock left deflection.

I have used this knowledge to help correct a left POI problem when the usual remedy, trying an arrow with a weaker shaft, made things worse.  In that case, I try an arrow with a stiffer shaft and that sometimes solves the problem.

[Hud]

http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/  

I prefer a paper test, rather than a bale, etc because of the possibility of a false reading. You should be about 6 ft. from the paper, on a frame, (wood or cardboard) suspended or mounted in front of the bale or backstop. You are right a left nock is stiff for most RH shooting.

However, First the nocking point needs to be correct. Then sprinkle tac powder on the sight windows in front and back of the rest to make sure the shaft does not hit anywhere. Then follow the procedure in the link. Although it is for wood arrows, testing is the same.

Some might consider using four different length arrows (4 sets of three), and each trimmed 1/4", (29", 29.25, 29.5, 29.75 and 30")try to keep your weight setup simple to add and subtract. One size bushing, and three or four different weighted points.

Remember, if you shoot a bare shaft next to one fletched with the same length, and weight, the stiff bare shaft will impact the paper, to the left aiming at the same spot and weak will be to the right of the fletched arrow. The stiffer bare shaft (shorter shaft) will be furthest to the left. The tear in the paper will be to left, as the nock is left of the point hole.

The above has been proven true by others.

The process above will work, but I would not build out the rest with several layers of velco. You do not want to introduce a soft plunger style rest in the testing. It will complicate the process.

When testing, I have found that vinyl electrical tape which comes in a heavier grade than standard electrical tape works great. Just add a few layers until the shaft is left of center. As you get into your testing you can add more. Two more points, do all test with field points, only, and assemble a test kit, borrow, or buy. A test kit will have different lengths of the same shaft, so you can change the weight up front. With 4 sets of three arrows, you can find the best flight. Start with 400's.

[ozy clint]

i tried 340's from full length down to 28.5", trimming and test shooting. no difference in BH flight. it still shoots CRAP! i can get them all to hit where i'm aiming, that's not the problem, the problem is they always have a kick in the flight. i feel like i need to change something major that i haven't changed yet. i had the same problem with my bob lee- i'm getting side plate wear. maybe i'm getting a bouncing arrow no matter what i do to the arrows? this might explain why i don't see any changes in BH flight when i make even radical changes in spine, it's being cancelled out by a contact problem perhaps. i just can't see how i can seemingly shoot any spine to a spot and get the same kick in flight. is there something in my form that somehow allows me to still shoot okay but gives me poor flight?
you guys who change point weight and see a difference in your tuning-      

i could shoot everything from a crowbar to a 600 spine and they would fly the same.    

i'm tempted to try a weatherest or something out of desparation. there's got to be something causing a problem that overides everything i change in my arrows.

[ozzyshane]

clint that is all i use is a weather  rest .

I think u are still under spined with  how you are set up..

The prob with the soft velcro is it is like a soft pressure button you will need something hard there like leather i had a sim prob and know mater what arrow i used i were still under spined...i bet this is your prob i did think of it untill tonite...

This why i dont like bows cut past centre if you like using UFOC ...

[ozy clint]

you might be onto something shane. after todays session i'm convinced i've got to change something on the shelf. it's ridiculous that such big changes in arrow spine don't seem to effect flight, especially when everyone says they see changes with different point weights.
i might try the hard leather strike plate like you say and see how i go. failing that i might try a weather rest.
clint

[ncheels]

Is there any chance that you are torquing your bow with your bow hand?  It's hard to imagine all this tuning you are trying and still seeing the ssame constant bad flight.  Maybe it's something you are doing, as opposed to the arrow spine?

[Hud]

As for form, if the string is hitting a shirt, etc. or if the bow hand is rotated to the right will cause the arrow to slap. The release needs to be clean/smooth.

There was an old article published on tuning carbon, with variable length shafts, bare and with feathers, it was very good. If you do not have a copy, I can look and email a pdf copy if you can read pdf?

[CRS]

It is your side plate.  It is too thick, that is why everything is left.

I had the exact opposite problem with a bow that was cut past center.  Skinny carbons all shot right, no matter the dynamic spine.

Replaced thin leather strike pad with thicker leather and went to bigger diameter Victory arrows.  Tuned right in and shoots fantastic.

[ozy clint]

i'm going to change the strike plate to leather but still pad it out so the arrow sits just out from center. if i just put a single layer of leather on, the arrow will be sitting inside center with the bow being 5/16" past center and skinny shafts. failing that i might try a weather rest style rest.
why cut a bow 5/16" past center when you have to pad it out anyway? is it just so that fat arrows can be brought near to center?
thanks for the help guys.
i hope it's just the soft, fuzzy, 3 layer, velcro side plate that is causing me trouble. when i think about it i always used to use leather but changed to velcro because it was easier to instal being self adhesive. i never had this tuning trouble in the 'old days'. i hope it's just a coincidence that i've overlooked in my frustration!

[Friend]

Ozy...Have had my best bare shaft flight ever with the following set-up...even robinhooded a bare shaft to bare shaft at 15 yards...excellent flight out to 40 yards...likely considerably much further if I were a more competent archer.

[email protected] 28"s...shelf-1/8" past center

Shaft...Victory HV350...28 1/2"...100 gn insert...300 gn head...611 gn total

Note: shot thru a doe full length from sternum...6-8" exit inner back leg...300 gn Big 3.

Would more than pleased to send you a HV300 with 100 gn insert to give it a go...note: a HV300 with 400 gns up front may yield a total wt near 625 gns... be prepared for excessive target wear.

[ozy clint]

i changed my strike plate to leather and packed it out so the arrow was sitting a little outside center. flight with my original 30" 400 axis shafts is a little better. as i shaved the leather down to bring the arrow closer to center flight got better. the arrow is as close to center as i care to go now without risking going past center.

how is it that flight gets better by moving the arrow closer to center? that means the arrows i have are stiff and this goes against all good advice here. also i've shot these same arrows out of my 70# limbs and flight is overall better than than on the 58# limbs. again suggesting too stiff. the other thing is i have never had a bareshaft land to the right of a fletched shaft. even if they are grossly weak and showing false stiff when i make them stiffer or change to a stiffer spine they continue to land to the left of fletched shafts. i'm making a stiff shaft stiffer and getting the same results. if they are grossly weak there should be a point were they begin to land right and come in to line as i continue to trim but this just isn't happening. they all land left!
when i overdraw they tend to fly better too.


some 500's will be ordered soon. i feel compelled to eliminate the one variable i have yet to try- weaker shafts.

[calgarychef]

Clint, no way the 500's will be the ticket for you.  What about brace height differences, have you looked at that?  I hate to mention it too because I'm sure you've thought about it but are your nocks too tight on the string?

[ozy clint]

checked all that. don't think it's a brace height issue cause i've had the same problem with two different bows.

[ozy clint]

if 500's aren't the go, how can i get a shaft to show weak? i've shot a 28" 340 with 350gr upfront and it lands to the left indicating stiff but it is apparently 'false stiff'.
if i need 300's for my 58# limbs i might as well junk my 70# limbs because there isn't an arrow made that will shoot out them.

what bewilders me is i can't get a true weak reading only 'false weak' readings landing to the left. there is no bell curve happening here.