Wyoming Guys, question on 50# minimum for elk

[FerretWYO]

Originally posted by centaur:
I called the Cheyenne office, and again, the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing. "Maybe he could carry something from the bow's manufacturer to say what the weight would be" was the best guess I got from anyone. In other words, they are clueless. I plan on having a one on one with my local warden when I can catch him. I don't know why an email to all wardens that explains how trad bows work and how to handle this in field situations wouldn't be a good way to go, but we are dealing with a state bureaucracy here, so who knows? Probably would take multiple committee meetings, power point presentations, and high level conferences to come to a resolution.        

That is pretty funny Pat. You know I have spent a lot of time with the G&F in the past few years. I can tell they never cease to amaze me in how complicated a simple thing can be. Kind of like my day job. I also asked a warden here in Cheyenne this question a few years ago. He no longer works for the department. His response was "well if we ticket you for illegal equipment you have to prove it wrong in court". Basically saying his ignorance became by responsibility. I asked if I would get paid for the training I provided to him and the rest of the wardens during the court case. Needless to say I was not to pleased with the response.

I then took it to the chief of LE for the department. He said if it meets the requirements its good. Again a political answer.

My experience has been they ask me I tell them and that in the field has been no warden ever cared. Had one look at a broadhead but he was more interested in becoming a bowhunter. If you shoot a self bow write it on there just makes it easy.

[monterey]

"well if we ticket you for illegal equipment you have to prove it wrong in court".  

Au contraire!  You are innocent till proven guilty.  They must go to court and present a case that proves  their  Point!

This will require a full explanation of the law to the court.  Therefore a full exposure of their thinking and an interpretation of the law.  The plaintiff merely needs to state that the equipment met the letter of the law.  It's up to the attorney for the g&f to show otherwise.  

Only way they are going to succeed is to confiscate your bow in the field, bring it to court and demonstrate that it does not meet the 50# requirement.  Then their will be the problem of the veracity of the scales they provide, etc., etc.

Willing to bet that no case of inadequate bow weight has ever been through the court system!

Colorado and Wisconsin (to name only two that I'm aware of) used to have a minimum cast rule.  Wonder how that would play out in a court room.  

[Pine]

This kind of thing has been trying to happen across the USA and Canada for quite some time now . There has been attempts to put a minimum speed of arrows at 250fps . It is a push to keep traditional archers from hunting big game . The thing is how can they enforce it ?
The real problem is ignorance and the people that are pushing this sort of thing seem one sided .

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well in all the years i've been archery hunting the only thing i've ever seen a game warden look at was broadheads. I've flat out never seen a game warden even look at a bow.... They certainly don't carry bow scales around to check draw weight....

If you have a state minimum weight requirement and don't have it marked on the bow as 50# i'd cover it it up and not worry about it. as long as you are drawing 50#'s for elk, that is what the law wants....

I'm not advocating breaking the law. I'm just saying having a bow marked less than the minimum requirement could cause you lost time in court. You would beat the ticket if you are actually drawing 50#'s.

[damascusdave]

You bring up a point that needs clarification in a number of jurisdictions...there is a good possibility that local bow hunting organisations were involved when the regulations were formulated...a local bow hunting organisation could just as easily be involved in rewriting for clarification

DDave

[beaunaro]

I'm not advocating breaking the law but I agree with Bowhuntingrn and KirkII.

Rather than open a can of worms and spend countless hours trying to educate a too-busy Fish and Game Department about a non-priority item for them....I would simply re-sticker the bow (if it makes you feel better).

Especially since you know and can demonstrate that in your hands it produces at least 50#.

I would rather spend my time hunting.

JMHO

[gringol]

I have never actually heard of anyone being ticketed for a low draw weight.  Sure the regs are written poorly, but it seems we're looking for a boogey man here.  If you we're poaching they'd probably confiscate the bow, measure the weight, and throw the whole book at you, but otherwise I don't see this being a real issue...has anyone been cited for this?

[widow sax]

I would never trust a warden a lot of them I have been around say you are guilty until proven innocent and it is easyer for them to fine you and worry about it latter knowing most would pay it instead of loosing time and money to fight it.    Widow

[wingnut]

Get a paint pen and write the weight at your draw on the bow.  You can remove it with mineral spirits or a little acetone later with no problem.

I have the same problem as I have a 30 1/2" draw and because of neck surgery am restricted to 50 pounds.  Mine scale 51 @ 30.5 and that's what I write on the limbs.

Mike

[gringol]

Originally posted by widow sax:
I would never trust a warden a lot of them I have been around say you are guilty until proven innocent and it is easyer for them to fine you and worry about it latter knowing most would pay it instead of loosing time and money to fight it.    Widow

Wow.  Thats pretty cynical.  I have met a few wardens in the woods and they were all very professional and reasonable.

[Blackhawk]

Wardens have a lot more to consider than an archer's pull weight.  

I agree that never trusting a warden is somewhat cynical, but maybe we should consider their job.  It's common for them to be working alone in isolated areas AND it's almost certain that everyone they encounter will have a weapon.  IMO, it's a tough job for sure.

[ChuckC]

So far, the few I have met in the woods have been civil as well.  I think that in MOST cases, if you exhibit some knowledge, both of the rule, and of the way your bow works and why you are sure you make the cut, they will listen.  

It really doesn't take a rocket science doctor to figure out the basics behind how a stick bow works if you think about it a bit.  

Plenty of things to worry about today. I am guessing that this is one thing we should worry less about.  

ChuckC

[Paul_R]

There was one federal guy who was officially banned from enforcing California state law in Eldorado and neighboring Countys because of his behavior. It happens but fortunately very rarely. I've never had anything but positive experiences with wardens.

[Paul_R]

Dang it, another double post!    

[longbowman]

In PA the minimum weight for deer is 35#.  I was coming out of some private property one night and had a Game Warden parked beside my car.  Since I was the only person the property owner had given permission to hunt there he was just checking up on who I was.  I was using my longbow and after I showed him my written permission he says, "Using that type of equipment makes the weight limit critical for killing a deer, are you legal?"  I had the guy who made my bow put "At Least 45#" on it.  I asked if he knew much about traditional equipment and he said he started with a recurve.  I handed him my bow and said do you think this is OK?  He couldn't budge the string and he said how heavy is that?  I said, "At lease 45#"!  We both had a good laugh over it.

[Kelly]

Originally posted by monterey:
 

"well if we ticket you for illegal equipment you have to prove it wrong in court".  

Au contraire!  You are innocent till proven guilty.  They must go to court and present a case that proves  their  Point!

This will require a full explanation of the law to the court.  Therefore a full exposure of their thinking and an interpretation of the law.  The plaintiff merely needs to state that the equipment met the letter of the law.  It's up to the attorney for the g&f to show otherwise.  

Only way they are going to succeed is to confiscate your bow in the field, bring it to court and demonstrate that it does not meet the 50# requirement.  Then their will be the problem of the veracity of the scales they provide, etc., etc.

Willing to bet that no case of inadequate bow weight has ever been through the court system!

Colorado and Wisconsin (to name only two that I'm aware of) used to have a minimum cast rule.  Wonder how that would play out in a court room.    [/b]

FYI, Wisconsin has always been and still is minimum 30# draw weight!

Idaho has a minimum cast distance-something like 110 yards?

[KSdan]

I agree with a couple of posters about how the law/judiciary works. . .  and I come from a line of Law Enforcement- so I have respect for LO folks.  However, if you receive a citation (and have not admitted guilt by paying the fine) you are still NOT guilty until the judge or jury renders such. If you think the field decision was not correct you have the complete right to question it and get a decision from the judge.  For what it is worth- the abbreviated regs they hand out may NOT be the actual law.    

2C

Dan in KS

[monterey]

Kelly, probably memory slippage on my part

going back about 55 years on that.  Coulda been Michigan too  

CO is 35# min and that includes elk.

[Whip]

The only problem with the innocent until proven guilty line of thinking is that it may cost you hundreds of dollars or more to actually prove it if required.  I once paid a relatively small fine that I absolutely know I wasn't guilty of simply because I could not justify the time off work and travel expense to fight it.

Far better to remark your bow to reflect the weight at your draw and avoid the ticket in the first place than need to prove that you are correct in court.

And on the other hand, if your bow is marked 50 @ 28 but you draw something less than that you should think about a different bow to comply with the obvious intent of the law.

[Bob Moran]

An interesting thread, but I'm disappointed by the recurring theme that COs are ignorant jerks looking to stick it to us righteous archers. Especially since no one has been confronted by a CO relative to legal bow weight. In the unlikely event that you should be confronted by a CO about your bow weight, put yourself in his place: Your bow is marked 45#@28", but you claim that "oh, I'm special and when I use this bow, it is really 50#". Actually, I think the only time a question would be raised would be if you were using a significantly lower bow weight, like 35#. It would be informative to see how the code is actually written. If it says "50# @ 28", then the argument about overdraw may be irrelevant.