A standard test of penetration?

[ChuckC]

On the other hand. . .  what difference does it make how much penetration we get on cardboard or foam, I'd actually like very little, so I can pull arrows easier.  Penetration only matters on game animals.

Other substrates. .  cardboard, layered foam, sand, and similar things provide different stopping parameters that I am pretty confident flesh and bone won't.  

I saw a video of a fella shooting blunts thru a piece of plywood.  The broadheads wouldn't go thru because the wood rubbed the blade and shaft, but the blunt knocked a hole in it large enough for the shaft to slide thru.   Does that mean blunts may be better than broadheads ?
Chuckc

[achigan]

Absolutely...for shooting through plywood  

[BenBow]

There is a big issue with the what is used because friction favors KE while water based favors momentum which is why KE is such a poor indicator of animal penitration.

[Phil Magistro]

Chuck and Benbow,  it's all relative.  Friction will happen on foam or cardboard targets to the same degree on each shot from various arrows.  In my view, these tests don't show how far an arrow will penetrate but they do show how well they penetrate compared to each other.

I'm sure that an arrow that penetrates well in foam or cardboard will also penetrate well in an animal.  The bone component is different only in the ability of the arrow to smash through. But in deer and elk ribs shouldn't be an issue.

In real life there may be a difference when considering momentum or KE but I'll bet the difference is slight.

[old_goat2]

I think chuck and Ben are thinking along the same lines as me. Shooting a dry medium, a small diameter light arrow may penetrate farther than a normal diameter slower and heavier arrow just because it generates more heat due to it's speed and melts the glue in the cardboard for example which would reduce friction.  Nobody wishes more than me for there to be a definitive way to test penetration that was cheap and easy. I think ballistics gel is probably the best idea but I don't know it's cost and don't know how easy it is to make and use.I personally just go with theory and that says a  properly tuned arrow with an appropriate shaped broadhead and you will be good to go on penetration

[nightowl1]

No offense to anyone but I know that this concept can work. Im not really asking for validation just help getting the details worked out. I'm not trying to compare cardboard to deer, but a simple comparison of bows that are capable of taking deer. There is a difference. That's as simple as I can describe it I think.

If you don't think it will work, that's fine. Participate and your  results will help that determination. This will take more than 10 minutes of thinking to figure out. I want experiments not theoretics.

If your willing to try it, follow up on this thread.

Go to a pizza place and ask or buy  a few boxes. Take your favorite bow from a distance you have cleanly killed deer at (and not a step farther) an see how many you can get through before the arrow isn't laying on the other side of the boxes.

I expect to there to be changes and this to take time. Maybe just PM me if you want to try it. And help me work out the details of these experiments.

[2bird]

Ok, I have not shot a deer with this bow/arrow combo and my test is a little different as pizza boxes are not readily available...

BOW: Hoyt Dorado 45# at 28 (known for being 2 # more then stated at 28) I draw 27 3/4.

ARROW: Cebela stalker extreme 45-60's, 31" long 125 grain points with 4" feathers. Total arrow weight is 395 grains.

OTHER: 16 strand FF string, 2 everlast string leach silencer's, I shoot with a flipper rest 2 and a plunger button, I use a NEAT glove and shoot 3 under.

DISTANCE: both shots are from 10 yards

TARGET 1: 6 layers of cardboard that = 7/8" thick
 

 
 

 

TARGET 2: I decided to double the cardboard, I folded it in half and now it was 12 layers that =1 1/2" thick

 

 


 

[old_goat2]

Now put a broadhead on and try it! Maybe it would be better test to have pizzas in the boxes, see if you can kill your supper;-) I'm not tying to be a buzz kill bro, I just see this as giving somebody false confidence or perhaps false doubt depending on the outcome!

[ChuckC]

maybe I am looking at this too close minded.  As you can tell from my earlier posts, I don't think this is a real good indicator of what is gonna happen in a deer,     BUT,     as just a test to compare apples to apples (but apples wearing different kinda broadheads) I can see your point and yes, I think this would show something.  Another twist. .  try a sharp vs a not sharp head (CoC).
ChuckC

[nightowl1]

I would say use a broadhead also. The only constants needs to be material, it's thickness an the setup to be a hunting setup.

No buzz kill old goat because you need evidence to prove your point. If you find that you can get a 20lb bow to perform as well as a reliable hunting setup you would have a point. Until then it's all just an unsupported hypothesis.

That's a great start though 2bird. What you did would probably be easily repeatable. Slide a broadhead through there now from 10-15-20 yards and see what ya get. And we will log the numbers down. I wish we could standardize how to consistently secure the cardboard in place but not sure how to work that yet.

Y'all want to go with layered cardboard like that?

[2bird]

So hypothetically if you shot 3 deer with a certain set up from 10-15 yards and you buried the arrow up to the fletching on all 3 deer and you consistently penetrated 25-28"  at 10 yards of a particular cardboard target you would say that's a invalid test???? No one is comparing cardboard to deer, you can't even really compare deer to deer if you want to get technical. But a general idea is totally obtainable with this idea, not wether or not you will get a pass through or not but remember you only need 6" of penetration to kill a whitetail, I believe you could determined kill or no kill with this type of test. My 2cents

[2bird]

I agree with the broadhead but i didn't have much time to shoot today...

I vote for making a wood stand much like a field goal then use C clamps to secure the cardboard onto the frame, I will make one up this week and try again with broad heads.

Also I think 20 layers should be the standard to compensated from heavy bows/arrows and shorter arrows etc...

[nightowl1]

Sounds good to me. I'll make one up this week and start some shooting. I just don't have any proven bows in my possession anymore to grab real data. Just bows that "should be" capable.

So if you want to participate, make up a c frame with wood that's 12 or 18 in square and put 20 layers of cardboard attached with clamps. The layers may be altered after more testing but we have to start somewhere.

Shoot a hunting setup with broadheads at 10 & 20 yards. Let us know what your typical results on deer are and what your penetration in inches is for each distance.

[Bladepeek]

I think this will be intereting. I know I got a pass-through on a whitetail with my 50# recurve and 2117s with Zwickey Delta. I got total penetration (but not pass through) with my 43# 'curve on a 275# hog - 3555s with same BH.

I can't really compare those two shots - different animals, different angles, etc. But with a standard target medium, I could say I get 20% more penetration out of the 50#er than the 43# bow. Not much use to anyone else, but will tell me what to expect from my different bows with different points (2 vs 3 blade) and different weight arrows. I think this may be a lot of fun and I will learn something from it too.

[nightowl1]

Looks like you have quite the collection of bows to try with too. Haha

[Roadkill]

Wasn't there a dead cow test here abouts a few years ago?

[nightowl1]

Don't know. But doubt that can be the same thing as we are trying here. There is no way to standardize that medium.

[gringol]

This is a great excuse to order more pizza.  Can we incorporate beer boxes into the standard as well?

[2bird]

Beer box does bring up a good point... Beer boxes and cereal and the similar are really thin, we need to find a consistant cardboard thickness.

[SuperK]

Several years ago before ballistic gel, some "experts" used wet newspaper to shoot handguns into.  I think they would get day old newspaper bundles, soak it several hours in water, let it drain until the water stopped dripping and then shoot into it with different handgun loads.  You could then separate the paper and examine the length of the wound track, the diameter, etc.  Something else ya'll might consider...