A standard test of penetration?

[damascusdave]

Lots of great ideas on here where someone else does all the work...if it's such a good idea go ahead and do it yourself and tell the rest of us your results

DDave

[Rays Arrow]

Thanks 2bird, great detail and excellent pictures

[Bladepeek]

I think I can pick up a lot more scrap cardboard than dead cows, too!

[halfseminole]

In kenjutsu, we used wet tatami mats rolled around green bamboo to simulate limbs.  I'm noticing a trend here of wet media, as the inside of an animal is wet as well and firing into a wet medium is a far better gauge of penetration on a live creature.

I know how to mix ballistics gel, but it's a question of did we all mix it properly or not.  There are several formulas online that use easily gotten materials, but it would add up in price over time.  Wet newspaper is the best idea I've seen thus far.  Cardboard is not all created equal.

I know of a case where a cow was tested, a fellow with a low fifties Hill longbow was given a dry cow. His arrow went through the cow and into the hog pen. If I remember right it was a Hill head on a cedar arrow.

[ChuckC]

The way the current test facility is designed, tape holding it in place from the bottom is going to allow a large amount of movement, which WILL hinder performance, as well as hinder it in increments ; the higher (away from the tape) the hit, the more likely that cardboard is to flex; the more you hit the cardboard, the flimsier the connection to the base unit.  we need something that won't flex and won't change.
ChuckC

[2bird]

lol I think we should put Chuck in charge of QA

[nightowl1]

Based on what everyone has said, I'm going to make up my frame this evening after work with a method of securing it like you said, Chuck. If I have time to go to the grocery store, I'll grab some cardboard too. Hopefully shoot some tomorrow and pics by wednesday with my measurements.

I'm not worried about mimicing the flesh by having it more liquid. Its far more important to have a consistent medium. There are too many variables with saturating paper to get consistency between everyone's trials. Ambient temperature, amount of water vs paper weight, length of time... Let's settle on dry cardboard for now.

Bladepeek and 2bird correct me if I'm wrong but if there is any validity to this the end answer would end up as follows:
A bow with X amount of penetration at 10 yards has X +/- the amount of penetration as another bow. That is all that can be determined. The larger the sample size and the more proven hunting setups we try we should find a range of penetration in the target medium that can have a correlation to an adequate hunting setup. Not a threshold of lethality but a threshold of confidence.

That is all I'm saying. Simply applying the scientific process.

[2bird]

yep pretty much. I spoke to my brother and he shoots a 45# recurve also, in fact his arrows are within 20 grains of mine, he draws 26" and I draw 27 3/4", we both will use the same broadhead for testing purposes and it should make for an interesting comparison.

[ChuckC]

2 bird, I retired from that stuff, get someone else !

hehehe
ChuckC

[DaveT1963]

I dont see how testing on a live animal is standardized?  Muscle density, hair/fur density, is bone contacted, angle of shot, moving or standing and 100 other variables might effect results?  My broadhead arrows never fully penetrate my dirt pile, and seldom are they burried to the exact same depth.... but I am not worried about what they will do on any N. American Game Animal.

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by killinstuff:
I like testing penetration on animals.  Anything less then a hole in and hole out is poor penetration.

Unless you peg the off shoulder    :D    :D    :D

[brianbfree]

As a Special Education Teacher I am against all forms of standardized testing.  

[Hawken1911]

That just made my day.    :D  (I'm also a teacher)

[Hawken1911]

That just made my day.     :D   (I'm also a teacher)

[BenBow]

Water jugs cheap and realistic unless you have hard water        

[tracker12]

I am with others that have posted that the only way to choose a broadhead is after seeing how they do on real game.  I like penetrations as much as anyone else but for me I like to see what the BH does as it cuts through the animal.  You see very little discussion about Wound channel which I thnk is very important.  I have shot deer with a bunch of different BH's and some just seem to cause more bleeding and quicker kills.  The last couple years I have shot VPA three blades.  The wound channel from them seem more like a hole that a smooth cut.

[beaunaro]

When you guys run out of boxes and can't eat any more pizza, just send it to me via overnight USPS.

I promise I will return the empty boxes for you to play with, so long as you don't mind a few holes in them.

       

[wallybowman]

I agree with others cardboard does come in different methods of construction. Trying different cardboard boxes over the years I have found that some types will peel apart at the edges even if they are compressed. Now I mostly use Styrofoam boxes a co-worker's $6,000-a-dose medicine comes on. They are around 12"X6"X8", the insides having a rectangular pocket 1" deep and 4X4". I tape the lid shut with two-sided tape. Putting two boxes front - to - back works really well with field points but broadhead tipped arrows usually blow through when using my heavy weight bows. Shooting through the sides of these boxes yields much less penetrationr as the boxes are more solid. And the higher the foc the greater the penetration, such as with a 2117 fronted with a 260 grain field point.

[Tajue17]

after I learned about all the kills by people using 40-45lb bows and 8 to 10 gpi arrows I pretty much fell back in the chair realizing I can pretty much use any set up I want with my gear and I'm good to go.

its the arrow flight with those broadheads that should be the big concern because there are a lot of people out there that get crappy flight with their once field pointed arrows that now have broadheads for deer season and they either don't correct it and try to make it work or they just figure they have a "best or #1" arrow that seems to hit pretty good so they'll shoot that first and the other arrows are pretty much in the quiver to look good.

you guys know where I'm going with this but if anyone takes penetration seriously then arrow flight and perfectly matching shafting to your bow is key to not only consistent arrow after arrow accuracy but KE or what I call Pass thru Potential is at its highest,,,, then of course keep em sharp and pick a spot is part of the recipe also.

sadly I really can't pay any attention to penetration anything threads because I'm too close to deer season,,, this is all said with a smile but I can't be 2nd guessing my gear right now I'll be shooting Ace Broadheads on snag arrows that fly like lasers out of my Morning Star or Vixen both 56# if I don't see a pass thru I'm coming back to this forum and show a video of me breaking those two bows over the bridge of my nose......

as for pizza if it isn't all spoken for I'm a big fan of Garlic & Feta or Anchovy with Roasted peppers (what can I say I grew up in Boston) along with a frozen 22oz mug of Sams Summer Ale.