Arrows hitting shelf: Need the gurus cause I'm stumped!

[NBK]

I've been shooting a longbow long enough that I'd expect I could figure this out, but alas, no and I must resort to posting another tuning question.

My arrows are hitting the outer edge of the shelf on my longbow resulting in a faint "tick" on release and I'm incapable of getting a "stiff" bareshaft reaction.  Bareshafting goes from WAY weak to immediately striking shelf even with very small reductions in arrow length, (1/8th").

Here's a pic of the shelf contact, right on the outer edge in the middle, same spot everytime.  The white stuff is baby butt cream, (hey, it works!)
 

Here's the specs:

I shoot split finger.  Nocks fit loosely on the string.

Liberty English (1/8th cut from center)
60#@28" drawn to 28"

Arrows:  CE Heritage 250's.  100gr. insert, 200gr. point for 300 total up front.
Started full length bareshaft, shot several arrows reading "weak"; no contact with shelf.  Started cutting 1/4" at first, then 1/8th" to stiffen arrow.  The arrow always reads weak except now it sometimes contacts the riser.  Took the arrow down to 29 1/4", bareshaft flies the straightest but a noticeable "tick" on every shot and shelf contact.
Started over with a new arrow and stopped at 31".  Arrow shows "weak" but doesn't hit the shelf.  Fletched it and yep, nicks the shelf again!
This is driving me nuts because at no point are any of these shafts flying "stiff".

My nock point is normally 1/2" to 5/8th" above center.  I raised it to 1" above center and this still happens.  Lower than 3/4" and it strikes every time.

I put a small Velcro tab on the shelf to act as a elevated rest and it still happens.  Plus the Velcro is getting worn really quick like the shaft is getting pushed into it.  

I'm aware of nock pinch on the arrow, so I tried moving my top finger up further and visually look at my arrow at full draw.  I'm not flexing that arrow.

So that's my issue.
I talked to Allen Boice, (great customer service FYI), and he wasn't too sure.  He thought that 250 shafts with standard inserts and 175 gr. points would work, (a stiffer shaft than I'm shooting) and he also thought that nock set should be fine at 1/2".
Is there some form issue I'm unaware of that can cause every shaft to strike the shelf?  Am I so far overspined that everything is going to recover to quick and hit the shelf?  
Should I just say "screw it" and hunt?!!!

So give me what you've got because I'm dying to hear that one "Aha!" nugget.

[mec lineman]

My advice would be to shoot 3 or 4 fletched shafts of the same specs and see if they group to the left. Just my 2 cents.

[vintage archer]

NBK

Sounds like you are having fun…stuff like that get frustrating.

You might try increasing/decreasing  the brace height of the bow.
By increasing the brace height dramatically !/2 inch you can tell if it will help.

A quick way to determine if the arrow is to stiff is to hang additional weight up front. If you are using a 200grain field tip use a 300. This is assuming you have a way to change easily.

It is not uncommon to get false readings  when bare shafting. Sometimes doing something like changing weight up front or moving the brace height will shed some light or gives another clue.

I really envy you having so much fun    

[bigiron]

to stiff

[ishoot4thrills]

When you say that your arrows are "showing stiff", by what means are you bareshafting? Maybe your bareshafting system is possibly at fault.

Personally, I use the method where you shoot a few bareshafts and see how they group with a few identical arrows that are fletched. If your bareshafts consistently group to the left of your fletched arrows, then your arrows are too stiff(for a right handed shooter). Bareshafts grouping to the right of fletched arrows means you're too weak. Or, you can do the same test with broadhead tipped fletched arrows instead of bareshafts and compare them the same way to your field tipped fletched arrows. This has always worked great for me.

Since your bow is cut 1/8" FROM center instead of 1/8" PAST center, it would seem as though you would need a relatively weaker arrow than a bow that is cut to center or past center.

Good luck, I wish you well, and very soon.....

[Alexander Traditional]

I agree with vintage archer. I play with tip weight quite a bit,going back and forth and looking for better or worse arrow flight,and then maybe start cutting.

[NBK]

Vintage and Alexander:  I did try to confirm with point weights although I don't have 300 gr. points, I thought, "my arrows are flying weak, so a lighter point will stiffen them up".  I put on a 100 gr. point instead of 200gr.  Bareshaft flew straighter and impacted more to the left, but there was shelf contact on every shot.

ishoot4thrills:  I can't get a "stiff" reading on bareshafts, i.e. fly nock right and impact to the left of fletched shafts.  They're all "weak", nock left, impact right of fletched, and when they really ding the shelf they fly REALLY weak!

It's frustrating because this isn't my first time tuning arrows.  I've had some setups where I could watch a bareshaft snake it's way 30 yards.  More so, this bow is sooo quiet, except for that "tick".

[nineworlds9]

I'm in the 'I don't bareshaft' camp.  Target material (especially bag targets) is way too unreliable to tell you how your arrows are impacting unless you're shooting foam or similar IMHO.  I don't do it, but would rather paper tune.  I will probably get flamed for this LOL.  I generally shoot full length fletched arrows and use insert and point weight changes, along with brace height and nock point changes to tune.  I look for clean beautiful arrow flight.  And will shoot groups and see if they tend to impact left or right.  My goal is to find the arrow spine that will tune for the bow using those changes.  Saves having to own an arrow saw.  

Having a bow that is center cut or just past center is an advantage using this method, though just before is not such a big deal either.  

I agree, play with brace height and see what you get.  Having a high nock point is not bad.  Individual form will affect what nock point height is effective for you.  My nock points always end up pretty high and I shoot split finger.  Its what works for me.  

String strand count and material also affects dynamic spine quite a bit.  What are you using??  

60@28 is a powerful bow.  250's aren't super stiff for this draw weight.  

As an experiment, take that 29.25" shaft and cut it to 29".  Use a 50g insert with your 200g point OR the 100g insert with a  175g point and play with the brace height to make up for the 25g.  See what happens.  I think 29" is as short as you'd wanna go.  If they don't fly true then its back to square one.  Start full length again and see what is different.  But I think with brace height tweaks it might be close.   Don't be afraid to keep that nock point high if it works for you.  If the noise goes away that's the most important thing.  Don't get obsessed with baby powder and stuff like that LOL.  Clean flight and quiet  

[Steve O]

Originally posted by bigiron:
to stiff

Agree totally.  Not sure what your bare shaft vs. fletched shafts are showing, but your shelf is SCREAMING too stiff...

[wingnut]

Yep anytime you have a weak or stiff reading the first thing I recommend is going weaker or stiffer by changing the tip weight and verify what your seeing is not a bounce off the riser and a mirror effect.  Many times a too stiff will look weak (right) because it hits the riser and tips the tail out.

My indicator would say too stiff with the shelf contact.  Anything happening down range doesn't count if your are having contact.  I hope you havent' cut all the shafts.

Mike

[2bird]

Agree that arrow sounds weak.  Another thing I noticed from, it may just be the picture? But it appears your shelf is flat also it looks like your handle material is coming in contact with your shelf.

[Rob W.]

I'm with nineworlds9. I like paper tuning and I would bet there is something going on with nock height and brace.

I have shot the 250's with my last 4 bows and have had similar specs. I usually end up with 30.25" and 250 total upfront though because of my draw.

[Pete McMiller]

I think you are in the ball park with your arrows.  I had a similar issue and found my nocking point was too high at 5/8ths and was perfect at 7/16ths.  That took care of 'most' of the ticking.  The balance is a form issue with my release.  When I get tired I tend to to cup my string hand and that almost always forces a 'tick' on the shelf AND hitting right.  If I flatten out the back of my string hand and get a good release the 'tick' goes away.

BTW: I also shoot a 6o@28 R/D.  My two best arrow combos are.

CE350, 29.375 bpo, 100 gr insert and 250 gr. point = 720 gr.s

Victory VForce HV 300 V6, 29.375 bop, 100gr insert and 300 gr. point - 645 grs.

Though you haven't said, I suspect that your bare shafts are hitting with nock high - indicating a high nocking point.  Figure that out first and then address your stiff/weak issue.  It's much easier when your shafts are flying straight.

[nineworlds9]

Pete was more able to get at what I was trying to point out about the form stuff..  +1 for that info.  Nock point def is sensitive.  Again, I have great luck with higher than normal and so do a lot of other guys shooting split.  But like Pete points out moving it an 1/16"- 1/8" of an inch can have a pretty decent effect.  Try to be as organized and systematic as you can with what you change and observe how it affects things.

[ranger 3]

Shafts are to stiff with the bow not cut to center, need a lighter spine to bend around it.

[Bladepeek]

I would definitely experiment a bit with the brace height. I recently received a "new to me" JD Berry longbow. I shot it at the brace height it was set at when I received it. All my arrows bounced off the shelf and no amount of tuning would correct it. I was also getting smacked pretty regularly on the wrist by the string. Raised the brace height only 1/4" and bingo - great arrow flight and I rarely get string slap either.

[Gooserbat]

Sounds crazy but I had the same problem once. Try s nock below as well as one above.

[toddster]

What everyone else said, I had a Bow that did that too.  I kept struggling with it, then added leather further back, and still had slight tick.  I took the leather off and lightly sanded the shelf down a little (was used bow)and gave it a slight rise.  The tick went away.  I bumped into an "ole timer" at a shoot and he said, before you go to all that trouble again, try turning cock feather in.  Few months later a buddy had same problem.  I said lets try this and guess what, went away.  You sure you are not torquing the bow upon release, causing the limp to turn in slightly?

[NBK]

Yep.  I use two tie on adjustable nocks.
I shoot cock feather in.
Could I be torquing?  (Not to be mistaken for twerking)
Maybe.  
We had just finished our state shoot when I started trying to tune this bow, so my fatigue level was pretty high.  Haven't shot in a couple of days so I will try brace height first.
Also have some 500 bemans lying around that I could test, but these 250's are brand new so I hope this works out!

[RedShaft]

The marks are top and bottom showing a shaft that's not flexing around the riser. Too stiff of arrow. If you are sure arrows are spines correct shoot cock feather in.

Or possibly to tight nock or nocking points. Should be a 1/16 th in gap or you are putting exteme pressure or flex on the arrow due to a poor string hand