High FOC.. help me understand..

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by RedShaft:
Did you ever see the new style nerf footballs that are heavy in the front with the tail(fletching) on the back? Whistle too..
I watched kids other day at the field throwing them a football field length with ease.
They had reg foot ball and only threw it 30- 40 yards at the longest. Btw. They r Fun to throw  Same concept.

That is a very interesting concept.  I remember throwing those balls around.  I think that is a perfect example of the high FOC.

[JimB]

Well,you might prove me wrong then.I could send you a couple 30 3/8",.350 Victorys but they are footed,have 100 gr inserts installed,4" wraps and 3",4 fletch,plus I also have one bare shaft,same length,insert and wrap.just let me know.

[Rob DiStefano]

realize also, that to a large extent, how ANY arrow will fly will depend on you and yer shooting (form).  this is why uncle howard could grab arrows out of the quivers of a dozen different archers and hit a pie plate with 'em all at 30 yards.  gotta love the talent.

i used to Obsess over everything about arrows.  then i stopped and got better.     :D

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by JimB:
Well,you might prove me wrong then.I could send you a couple 30 3/8",.350 Victorys but they are footed,have 100 gr inserts installed,4" wraps and 3",4 fletch,plus I also have one bare shaft,same length,insert and wrap.just let me know.

Jim,
I will gladly take them!  
Let me know what I owe you, and how to get it to you!

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
realize also, that to a large extent, how ANY arrow will fly will depend on you and yer shooting (form).  this is why uncle howard could grab arrows out of the quivers of a dozen different archers and hit a pie plate with 'em all at 30 yards.  gotta love the talent.

i used to Obsess over everything about arrows.  then i stopped and got better.      :D  

Rob, i wonder why my arrows always tune so stiff.  I wonder is it a bad release(but wouldn't that make me need a weaker spined arrow?) or is it good(makes sense that a smoother release would need a stiffer spine).  

Bottom line is I have no idea! lol.

[Bill Carlsen]

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball as hard as you can. Which one will travel farther?

[JimB]

Daniel,just PM me your address.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by DanielB89:
   

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
realize also, that to a large extent, how ANY arrow will fly will depend on you and yer shooting (form).  this is why uncle howard could grab arrows out of the quivers of a dozen different archers and hit a pie plate with 'em all at 30 yards.  gotta love the talent.

i used to Obsess over everything about arrows.  then i stopped and got better.         :D    

Rob, i wonder why my arrows always tune so stiff.  I wonder is it a bad release(but wouldn't that make me need a weaker spined arrow?) or is it good(makes sense that a smoother release would need a stiffer spine).  

Bottom line is I have no idea! lol. [/b]

welp, if yer messing with carbons, their dynamic spine is totally different than their labelled static spine.  most archers will do better by going down 1 or 2 carbon spine numbers, and at the same time loading up the front end a whole bunch.  

for me, and using 45-55# holding weight longbows (hybrid and hill), a 29"+ beman ics 500 with at least 250 up front is my *light* arrow at 505 grains for a 45-47# longbow.  i swap out to 100 grain brass insert and get me a 585 grain arrow for the 50-55# longbows.  same cheapo beman ics bowhunter 500 shaft, 29"+ in length to the back of the insert.  use whatever works best.

ps - the larger part of arrow tuning problem is always gonna be the archer.  we all have 'bad dayze', some worse than others, and all will skew the results one way or another.  a common denominator would be a shooting machine, but they're irrelevant because they don't include the unique human factor.

pps - FAR too many archers short draw, too.  and what does that do for arrow spine?     FAR too many archers are overbowed, as well, leading to the previous sentence.  :(

[Sapcut]

I agree with Rob, shot placement is the deal. I am shooting heavy arrows with all being 31.5 to 34.6% FOC.  If I had to narrow down all the FOC benefits down to pick just one....it would be very consistent arrow flight.  Which translates into the best chances for proper shot placement.  

Even with maybe a bad release or arrow hitting leaf or limb...the arrow so very quickly straightens back on course to follow the 500 grains up front still on target.

[overbo]

I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by overbo:
I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.

bingo!  we have a winnah!        

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by overbo:
I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.

I do the same thing.  Which is why I shoot .340 spined arrows.  I can not, no matter how short I trim the arrows, get a .400 spined arrow to fly right out of my bow.  A full length .340 will not fly well either.  I have to trim it down some.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by DanielB89:
I do the same thing.  Which is why I shoot .340 spined arrows.  I can not, no matter how short I trim the arrows, get a .400 spined arrow to fly right out of my bow.  A full length .340 will not fly well either.  I have to trim it down some.

this may all be a matter of your bow (tiller, brace height, nock point, holding weight, etc) and your shooting form (string grip, bowhand, what drawing and holding muscles you employ and their dynamics during the hold and release shot sequences, etc).

i say all this because i know of archers who, perhaps like you, have a very narrow selection of arrows that fly well, whereas other archers can easily get away with either stiffer or weaker shafted arrows.  some folks just can't seem to get carbons to work at all and stick with well flying woodies ... and vice-versa.  finding/understanding why these things occur can be near impossible to figure out, but they do occur.  sometimes just moving to a different bow will be the magic answer, and probably one reason why folks get disillusioned with their latest whizbang bow and are on the classifieds looking to both sell and buy.

[Sapcut]

Originally posted by overbo:
I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.

I agree with that as well.  What I have found is that the very high FOC arrows I have built are much easier to tune due to having a significantly wider spine window and being much less sensitive to weight changes in shaft.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

Originally posted by DanielB89:
I do the same thing.  Which is why I shoot .340 spined arrows.  I can not, no matter how short I trim the arrows, get a .400 spined arrow to fly right out of my bow.  A full length .340 will not fly well either.  I have to trim it down some.

this may all be a matter of your bow (tiller, brace height, nock point, holding weight, etc) and your shooting form (string grip, bowhand, what drawing and holding muscles you employ and their dynamics during the hold and release shot sequences, etc).

i say all this because i know of archers who, perhaps like you, have a very narrow selection of arrows that fly well, whereas other archers can easily get away with either stiffer or weaker shafted arrows.  some folks just can't seem to get carbons to work at all and stick with well flying woodies ... and vice-versa.  finding/understanding why these things occur can be near impossible to figure out, but they do occur.  sometimes just moving to a different bow will be the magic answer, and probably one reason why folks get disillusioned with their latest whizbang bow and are on the classifieds looking to both sell and buy. [/b]

Rob,

the funny thing is I have never shot a bow that i didn't have to have a heavier spine.  For instance, I own a longbow and recurve for hunting and target shooting.  One is #51@28(LB) and the RC is #53@28.  

The RC is a widow and the LB is a bow i built a few years ago.  the recurve shoots a .340 spine, the lb shoots a .400 cut to 30 with 200 up front.  

I have seen people shooting .500 spined arrows with a #50 bow.  that is unreal to me.  I guess this is all just reiterating what you said.  I must be one of the people who can't shoot wide variety of arrows. lol.  

On my longbow I have to shoot #65 spined woodies.

[bigbadjon]

I think most people really don't know how to tune an arrow. A .340 arrow is made to fly out of a 70# compound. A .400 spine is meant to to fly out of a 60# compound. There is no way it will tune true from a 50ish pound trad bow no matter how center shot, point loaded, or long.

[Rob DiStefano]

in summary ...

• carbon shafting has a huge dynamic spine, and for most archers that will mean going down (weaker) 1 to 2 spine range numbers
• all trad bows are unique, and are part of the arrow tune formula
• the archer may prove to be the larger part of the arrow tune formula - LOTS of unique variables abound and need to be uncovered and conquered

[katman]

Bigbadjon, I will respectfully disagree with your last sentence, and you left out draw length, bow efficiency and archers individual form. I like to think I know how to tune an arrow and can tune 340's and even 300's out of some low to mid fifty pound bows. My bare shafts, fletched field points and broadheads all tell me its on out to 35yds. The buck in my avatar was shot with a 300 spine goldtip ultralight high foc shooting 56#, pass thru.

Rob has made some really good points, as usual, and agree with all of them, especially the archers influence.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by bigbadjon:
I think most people really don't know how to tune an arrow. A .340 arrow is made to fly out of a 70# compound. A .400 spine is meant to to fly out of a 60# compound. There is no way it will tune true from a 50ish pound trad bow no matter how center shot, point loaded, or long.

Jon,
would you like for me to video this arrow paper tuned? I will gladly do that for you, if will help prove it to you.

[bigbadjon]

It probably does make a perfect bullet hole but you're also probably pointing way to the right to hit center. Rob has been trying to say most of you are over spined. I agree with him.