High FOC.. help me understand..

[bigbadjon]

I am looking at a .300 deflection Easton on my spine tester right now. It is spined so stiff it is off the chart on 26in posts. This is the arrow spine that was recommended to me from a member of this site that I thought knew what he was talking about for my A&H bow. There is no possible way anybody could get that arrow to tune out of that bow. I said what I said and still believe it to be true. Almost all traditional archers are overspined for carbons.

[LA Trapper]

Daniel,

I feel your pain.

On my 50# Toelke Whip I shoot a 1535 Gold Tip with a 175 gr Simmons broad head and a skinny string and it flies great.  I shot it bareshaft with field points and it flies great  also.

My 51# Widow with a skinny string will not shoot that arrow or bare shaft a stiffer 3555 no matter how short I cut it. Go figure. I ran it up and down the brace height with no luck.  It will shoot a Carbon Heritage 150.  This Widow is finicky. If you look at the Gold Tip scale, I am on the fringe.  You may be also.

Mike Harbison passed the same observation to me a couple of years ago.  Most trad shooters can go down in size with no issue.  

Good luck with it.

Are we getting together in October to shoot something?

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by LA Trapper:
Daniel,

I feel your pain.

On my 50# Toelke Whip I shoot a 1535 Gold Tip with a 175 gr Simmons broad head and a skinny string and it flies great.  I shot it bareshaft with field points and it flies great  also.

My 51# Widow with a skinny string will not shoot that arrow or bare shaft a stiffer 3555 no matter how short I cut it. Go figure. I ran it up and down the brace height with no luck.  It will shoot a Carbon Heritage 150.  This Widow is finicky. If you look at the Gold Tip scale, I am on the fringe.  You may be also.

Mike Harbison passed the same observation to me a couple of years ago.  Most trad shooters can go down in size with no issue.  

Good luck with it.

Are we getting together in October to shoot something?

Billy,
you bet we are!!! I am ready to be sitting in a tree.  I may go sit in a tree one evening this week just to scout a little.  

My #53 widow will not shoot a 5575 bare shaft.  they are very finicky if you ask me.  

my #51 longbow wont shoot a 35/55.  I feel like everyone elses suggestions don't work for me.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by bigbadjon:
It probably does make a perfect bullet hole but you're also probably pointing way to the right to hit center. Rob has been trying to say most of you are over spined. I agree with him.

I look exactly where I want to hit, and thats where I hit, or relatively close.  


If I had a perfect bullet hole, how would it not be in tune?  Even if i bareshaft at different lengths?  

I am asking, not being rude in any way.

Originally posted by bigbadjon:
I think most people really don't know how to tune an arrow. A .340 arrow is made to fly out of a 70# compound. A .400 spine is meant to to fly out of a 60# compound. There is no way it will tune true from a 50ish pound trad bow no matter how center shot, point loaded, or long.

I respectfully disagree with this line of thought! I shoot .400 spine shafts from a 50.1# at my 29.5"DL longbow, and I can assure you they are well tuned!

Bisch

[bigbadjon]

Most archers arrows are not centered on the string. As such it is possible to over spine an arrow and have it fly true by not pointing your bow square to the target. This is why some old timers might tell you your arrow cannot be too stiff. I take it you are an instinctive shooter. Sight down your arrow to see where you are actually pointing your bow when you are aiming. I would bet it is to the right of where you actually hit.

Also just to clear the air... I am not trying to be combative. Its just that the most common thread on this forum seems to inquire into carbon arrow spine and I do not believe the most common advice is accurate. I put off using carbons for years because of bad advice I received from a reputable member here.

[overbo]

Not all bows are built the same bigbadjon,

I have a 63lbs @28'' bow that bareshaft tunes w/ a 2317 cut to 28 1/2'' w/ a 150gr point weight. I'm think that shaft has a deflection of about .300.

 When I say bareshaft tunes, I mean at any distance!

[Rob DiStefano]

do NOT compare the static spine of alums and carbons, that's a mistake and will do you a disservice.  

the static and dynamic spine of alum is extremely close, as it is for woodies and f'glass.  

the issue is strictly with carbon shafting made up into arrows, where there is a huge corridor of difference 'tween static and dynamic spine for any give carbon shaft/arrow.

i will say again - it's not just about the carbon arrow, you MUST add in the bow and the archer to the equation.  failing to do so can give y'all a false positive as to how you think any carbon spine will fly for you, outta a specific bow.  for the very most part, this is NOT true for alums or woodies or f'glass shafts/arrows - they is what they is when they're on the spine meter.  whereas carbons (i.e. - those weak 'n' wimpy ones) on the static spine meter, for the most part, can easily prove themselves to be LIARS whence launched out of your bow, by you - they FLY well.  

AND, you MUST take into account the bow and YOU.  this is why some folks can make a .300 fly like it's on rails out of a 45# holding weight trad bow, and others can't ever do that and get rails-on results with a .500 carbon.

the essence of all this is why carbons can get a bad rap, and the fast food answer is ... step down in static spine for yer first go 'round with carbon arrows.
   
         :eek:                     :mad:                                        

[DanielB89]

So Rob,

you are saying, shoot a .400 spined arrow even though the .340's fly well, both bareshaft and fletched?  

I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make.  

Now, if i was taught wrong, let me know.  I have ALWAYS bareshafted my arrows, and shot the one that flew perfect!  Am I "wrong" in doing this?  

Why would i "step down in static spine" if my current arrows fly perfect.. not well, PERFECT!

As for which spine I shoot, i never "choose" a spine, i let the flight of the arrow tell me.  If that is a .600 or a .100, I don't care, I just want good arrow flight.

[Rob DiStefano]

daniel, please reread what i typed - i've not said you *must* drop down to a weaker spine, but that for most folks their choice of carbon static spine will be too high as the dynamic spine is much stiffer.  

ALL bows and archers are different and they are always part of the arrow tuning process!  if your bow and you like a particular carbon arrow spine, yer good to go, that's just great!  

as for bare shafting - nope, don't believe it's all that necessary, and in my fact it can be detrimental to a completed arrow's flight characteristics ... again, dependent on the bow and the string puller.

all my typing on this matter are strictly my opinions and in no way am i ever advocating "my way or the highway" - that would be stupid on my part.  y'all need to do yer own testing and draw yer own conclusions, that's always the bottom line.

[snag]

"the foc, efoc, uefoc, lmnop - all that stuff is ancillary to a well placed shot on game, with a good flying arrow that carries a really sharp c.o.c. broadhead." amen Rob.

[Don Stokes]

Listen to Rob. A perfectly tuned arrow will trump every other consideration. I'm old-school and shoot nothing but wood, and I ignore FOC as long as it's positive. I bare-shaft tune to select the right stiffness shaft and my big broadheads fly true and hit with my field points. I do sometimes have to tweak the setup for some bows, but I'm always very close to perfect when I start with a bare-shaft selected spine. Arrows that are flying perfectly straight will always penetrate better than arrows that aren't.

[Rob DiStefano]

back to the op's topic matter, foc ...

with carbons, since they're so dang light to begin with, i need to add weight to bring 'em at least up to 10gpp, but better over that number.  i don't like messing with tube stuffing (weed whacker, etc) and prefer to add it all on the front end.  this gives me good flight tuning latitude.  this always has me ending up with an efoc or uefoc arrow, but that's NOT my goal, it's just a by-product of getting enuf arrow total mass weight and good flight characteristics.  this can be done for alums as well, but i never shoot those shafts, not as durable as carbon (at least for me).

woodies are a different matter.  i'm far more careful with raw shaft weight range, and somewhat less about the static spine range.  the mass weight is more important to me and i like 'em light.  i hot melt points on, mostly 125-200 grains, so there is no efoc happening with any of my woodies, not ever.  some are down to 7% foc.  but they're Heavy, most are in the 12-13gpp range for any of my longbows.  do they penetrate, do they kill?  oh yeah.  no problem.   :D

[Don Stokes]

Rob, my woods this year are 625 grains for my 55# draw, a little over 11 gpp. I haven't calculated FOC because I don't care- with 145 Snuffers up front I know it's good enough. I'm different from you in wood arrow selection, though. I value matching spine over matching mass weight. I want all of my arrows within 5# spine, 2 or 3 better. In mass, as as long as I'm within a 20 grain spread I'm happy and accuracy doesn't suffer. My current set are all within 5 grains mass, but that was a happy accident.

[Don Stokes]

Last year I shot 14 ggp. I see no trajectory issues in normal hunting range, out to 30 yards for me.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
daniel, please reread what i typed - i've not said you *must* drop down to a weaker spine, but that for most folks their choice of carbon static spine will be too high as the dynamic spine is much stiffer.  

ALL bows and archers are different and they are always part of the arrow tuning process!  if your bow and you like a particular carbon arrow spine, yer good to go, that's just great!  

as for bare shafting - nope, don't believe it's all that necessary, and in my fact it can be detrimental to a completed arrow's flight characteristics ... again, dependent on the bow and the string puller.

all my typing on this matter are strictly my opinions and in no way am i ever advocating "my way or the highway" - that would be stupid on my part.  y'all need to do yer own testing and draw yer own conclusions, that's always the bottom line.

Rob,

I THOUGHT you were implying that my arrows are too stiff, which they may be, but they fly well.  

I appreciate all your input.  

What do you do for tuning purposes?  As any archer who is relatively "new to the game", you learn from those who will teach you, research, topics like this, etc.  

If my reply seemed pushy or rude at all, that was not my intent, and apologize as I can see how it may have came across that way.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Don Stokes:
Listen to Rob. A perfectly tuned arrow will trump every other consideration. I'm old-school and shoot nothing but wood, and I ignore FOC as long as it's positive. I bare-shaft tune to select the right stiffness shaft and my big broadheads fly true and hit with my field points. I do sometimes have to tweak the setup for some bows, but I'm always very close to perfect when I start with a bare-shaft selected spine. Arrows that are flying perfectly straight will always penetrate better than arrows that aren't.

Don,
you reminded me why I began bare shaft tuning in the first place, broadhead flight.  i remember shooting a field tip, hitting my mark, and shooting broadhead and hitting left of right of my mark be about 6" or so.  

This is why I bare shaft, but if someone knows a better way, I am open to it.  I can only do what I know how to do, which is why I started this topic, to hopefully learn from others trial and error.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Don Stokes:
Rob, my woods this year are 625 grains for my 55# draw, a little over 11 gpp. I haven't calculated FOC because I don't care- with 145 Snuffers up front I know it's good enough. I'm different from you in wood arrow selection, though. I value matching spine over matching mass weight. I want all of my arrows within 5# spine, 2 or 3 better. In mass, as as long as I'm within a 20 grain spread I'm happy and accuracy doesn't suffer. My current set are all within 5 grains mass, but that was a happy accident.

ah, the written word or lack thereof.  i'm not so much interested in woodie spine weight and and can always get by with 55-65# spine groups.  HOWEVER, whatever spine group i get i want those shafts to be within 5# average.  i shoot arrows in "built groups".  this gets the brain sight to know how a group of 55# spine will fly as opposed to a 65# spine group (this is all about woodies only!).  as to mass difference, 100 grain span is the max i'll go.  this is for shooting at 5 to 20 yards and not much more, which is why i like really heavy woodies (650+) for these relatively light longbow holding weights (45-50# on average).

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by DanielB89:
 

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
daniel, please reread what i typed - i've not said you *must* drop down to a weaker spine, but that for most folks their choice of carbon static spine will be too high as the dynamic spine is much stiffer.  

ALL bows and archers are different and they are always part of the arrow tuning process!  if your bow and you like a particular carbon arrow spine, yer good to go, that's just great!  

as for bare shafting - nope, don't believe it's all that necessary, and in my fact it can be detrimental to a completed arrow's flight characteristics ... again, dependent on the bow and the string puller.

all my typing on this matter are strictly my opinions and in no way am i ever advocating "my way or the highway" - that would be stupid on my part.  y'all need to do yer own testing and draw yer own conclusions, that's always the bottom line.

Rob,

I THOUGHT you were implying that my arrows are too stiff, which they may be, but they fly well.  

I appreciate all your input.  

What do you do for tuning purposes?  As any archer who is relatively "new to the game", you learn from those who will teach you, research, topics like this, etc.  

If my reply seemed pushy or rude at all, that was not my intent, and apologize as I can see how it may have came across that way. [/b]

[Don Stokes]

I'm shooting 85-90# barreled shafts (deflection of 0.280) at 30" bop from this hot recurve, pulling it 29" to an estimated 55#. Perfect flight with the 145 Snuffers and three 5" shields.