So, apparently I DONT hate r/d longbows

[snowplow]

I thought I did. I even wanted to. Then I shot all sorts of bows and just kept wanting to shoot the r/d.  

CCH invited me over and let me shoot his whole fleet and boy was it fun!! Thanks again for that!!

I am really really interested in 3 bows right now. I have done my homework enough to know they're great bows, but how do they relate to one another?

1. Stewart Lil Slammer (54" or 58" strung)
2. Cascade Brush Hawk (about 54" strung) [not made anymore and cch wont sell me his     maybe as a custom?]
3. Toelke Whip (58" strung)
4. Toelke Chinook (I think 55" strung?? please remind me!)

What do you guys know about these bows? Any advice/opinions?

[snowplow]

Oh, and lmk if there are others that fit right in!

[JRY309]

Haven't shot the first two,but have a 62" Whip and had a 58" Chinook(the Chinook comes in a 56" and 58").Toelke bows shootabililty and quality are top notch in my opinion.Looks like you are looking for a short bow.For short bows I like a Super Shrew and or a Kanati.Another couple to look at.I have had a couple of 58" Kanati,an excellent shooting short bow.I like the forward handle,make a short bow more forgiving and points nice and harder to torque the bow in my opinion.

[cch]

Snowplow, just remember the group size the shorter and lighter the bow was. If you have your mind set on a short bow I would recommend one that had a forward handle as that will minimize torque. Just let me know if you want to shoot any of my bows again.

[snowplow]

AHHHHHH there you go with that inconvenient truth again! But I totally agree. I kept telling myself the group was big because it was my first and last shots of the day. The funny thing I realized on the way home was that regardless, I still wanted to just keep shooting that little long bow for whatever reason. I love how it felt. =)

Just curious, does anyone weight these small bow risers to help with forgiveness?

I have heard of guys saying the bow bolt and phenolic is heavier and that helps. So it seems reasonable that one might try to weight it to make it feel like a more 'full bodied' bow.

[cch]

I know Centaur uses something called dark matter that is suppose to be heavier. If you ate going to custom order a bow just ask them to use the heaviest material they have. I think Kirk put some kind of metal or fluid filled cylinder to create heft. The bow bolt will add weight also and make it convenient to take on an airplane.

[cch]

Something else you could think about is a 3 piece longbow that will give you a little extra weight also.

[slowbowjoe]

I haven't shot the other bows, but I know the Whip is not really designed as a short bow… if you like the feel of a 58" Lil Slammer, or a Chinook, you'd want to compare it to more like a 62-64" Whip.
My wife started with a 58", but as her draw increased to 28", she sold it for a 62". A fine, sweet bow, to be sure.

With the Super Shrew and Kanati, I would highly recommend considering a Javaman Falcon (58, of you want to keep it short), or Elkheart, 56 or 58". I am mightily impressed with my 58" Falcon.

Next on my wish to try list would be a 56" Thunderchild, Caribou Wolverine, or a (somewhat underrated, it seems), 58"
Thunderstick Mag.

As JRY said, I find the forward grip aids for sure in paintability, repeatable grip, and reducing torque.

[nineworlds9]

snow,
you know I have chimed in with my thoughts on another thread.  

I have owned/shot bows 1,2,and 3, on your first post.  The Chinook is the only model Toelke I have not owned/tried.

So am I correct that you got to shoot bows 1-4?

Of bows 1-3, IMHO, the Lil Slammer is definitely the hotrod.  Also the quietest by a hair over the Whip.  Also a bit more dead in the hand by a hair over the Whip.  The Whip is a super bow by all counts, love them!, but just a little more mild overall vs any Slammer.  The designs are a bit different is the reason.  Whip has deeper cored limbs, whereas the Slammers all have wider thinner cored limbs by just a bit.  Slammers also have a bit more reflex in the limb for that extra speed.  

Slowbow' is correct that the Whip started as a longer design, but Dan has come out with the Whip HS limb profile which increases the performance on the shorter lengths in the 58-60" range.  Honestly the Whip HS would be a more fair comparison to the Slammers.  

The Cascade, for me kind of the odd man out, but also a great little brush bow.  It is a quick little thing for the weight, probably somewhere in between the Slammer and Whip.  The Cascade has wider thinner cored limbs still, definitely wider with less taper and thinner cored than either a Slammer or Whip.  Personally, I felt the Cascade was not as stable a shooter as either the Slammer or Whip.  A good bow, but just not as good as the other two.  

The Cascade I had came with a phenolic riser, so it did have some extra mass that was nice.  

I can't really speak for the Chinook, but I hear nothing but good.  I personally don't think the Chinook belongs in the comparison because it is a recurve.  

You seem to be leaning toward hybrids/ r/d longbows more so than recurves anyway  :D

Slowbow' brings up the same point I did about the forward handle hybrids, especially the ones with the extra mass in the riser from features such as phenolic/ bow-bolt.  It does exactly what you say and creates a more "full bodied" bow.  

I highly suggest you find a way to try a short forward handle bow with this characteristic.  I truly will shoot like a longer bow due to the increased resistance to movement the mass provides.  And there is no worry of them being 'too' heavy either, as the designs in themselves are slender enough that any additional ounces are a blessing and not cumbersome.  

I wish you could shoot my 2pc Java Man Elkeart. It is really a gem.

I am great fan of the Lil Slammer as I said.  If you get serious about that one you would be served well by opting for a heavy riser wood like Dymondwood, ebony, or cocobolo, as well as something like maple limb cores, or pershaps a maple/bamboo or maple/yew combo for some extra mass in the limbs.  

I had my bases covered on weight short bows, so for my Lil Slammer I opted for lighter materials.  Mine uses Wenge for the riser, which is very strong but not super heavy, as well as bamboo limb cores, so overall my Lil S is featherlight.  I will full well admit it is not as easy to shoot as my Java Man 2pc.  Highly forgiving for what it is yes, a short lightweight bow, BUT if I grabbed either and casually took a shot I know the Java would be far more likely to hit the 10ring simply because of the extra stability.  

Only you can know what will suit you best in the end.  

I would definitely take CCH up on his offer to shoot whatever bows he has available again, and maybe even a third time, or however much he'll tolerate     It often can take some time to really sense what is ideal for your shooting style.

[cch]

Also remember you have an almost 29" draw so make sure the bow is compatible.

I just looked at the Java man bows and that Elkheart sure looks nice. I think it will go on my want list.

[nineworlds9]

Originally posted by cch:
Also remember you have an almost 29" draw so make sure the bow is compatible.

I just looked at the Java man bows and that Elkheart sure looks nice. I think it will go on my want list.

YES!  Make sure it's a shorty that can handle it!  All the bows you listed, 1-4 should be just fine, the Lil S is good to 30" that's it, the Brushhawk about the same, the Whip will depend on how Dan has set it up riser length and taper wise, and the Chinook I would say at least 58" on that one.  

The Elkheart is a gem CCH.  Really from my talks with Gregg it seems IMHO his flagship in many ways.  The Falcons are more or less there for folks who like the longer riser section and added mass weight, but for all-around blend of performance and shootability the Elkheart is just super.  For the recurve guys there's the Helm's Deep of course and Assyrian (to me the recurve brother of the Falcon kinda) and then there are the bows with a little more hotrod even to them like the Inferno and Tanjavur.  Love a Java Man...but I sure do love a Slammer too.

[snowplow]

Thanks Nine, I'll re-check out the Java Man stuff. I looked at it back when I was 'sure' that I hated r/d lol.

The only bow I have shot in the list is the cascade. I called Jared at Toelke today and he gave me a ton of information and was great to talk to. I was asking about the Whip and he recommended a 60". The HS limbs never came up. I am not really even sure what the difference is. He is the one that brought the Chinook to my attention with what I described. He said if you have decent form you probably wont notice the difference in forgiveness between that and a Whip. And he said it was a bit faster which interested me because it sounds like the Whip is a very mediocre bow speed wise. And it is really short. One thing I do like a lot that I noticed with cch's bows is I like a lot of tension at brace if possible. I like that about recurves and the locator grip is my favorite. So it sounds like a 50's recurve might fit my bill pretty good, but I have never shot one. I also hear how quiet the Chinook is even compared to a longbow. Jarod mentioned that I can test drive one which was sweet. Anyhow that's how the Chinook came into the mix. I also spoke to Leon Stewart today about a lil slammer. That did not go as I expected. He was really nice but I couldn't drag a word out of him. He did mention that the 60" slammer would perform noticeably better than the lil slammer on the target range. I didn't really get that impression when I read his and other review of it. The cascade probably isn't even a possibility as it is no longer made. Bummer though that guy is only 40 min up the road!

I really cant find out much about that darn Chinook. I cant even hardly find any pictures of it online. That thing really seems like a wildcard for me. On paper it sounds about right.

I'll tell you what, this is 1000% harder than choosing what compound you want.

[slowbowjoe]

Biathalonman here on TG has shared a lot about the Chinook, all good things to say about it. His reviews, along with Ninewords, have been helpful for me, as I don't have the opportunity to try bows out, and they favor the same designs.

If Biathalon doesn't chime in, try a simple search, or drop him a PM, if you want feedback on the Chinook.

[Fisher Cat]

Nice post Nine Worlds.  Thanks!

Although a heavier riser does help keep everything still until the arrow is gone they do come with a price.  They are heavier to carry while hunting.  I have one. (Recurve) that is so heavy, it wiill twist in the hand at release if canted.  It is quite accurate though.  

Over the years I have found that the real "stand out" bows, accuracy wise, had one thing in common.  Their grips fit my hand perfectly.  I believe a really good fitting grip does at least as much for stability at the shot as riser mass, but with no drawbacks.  - John

[snowplow]

Great point John, that makes sense to me. I'll look into that Joe. Thanks you guys!

And just for personal growth, I will be willing myself to like the forward handles more today =)

[deaddoc4444]

Stewart Slammer
     MY choice !  
        Great bow  Great Guy !

[nineworlds9]

LOL Snow that sounds just like Leon.  He's very simple and matter of fact, to me pretty modest about his his work.  Honestly the bows speak for themselves.  He does a large part of his business just via word of mouth.  I got my first Stewart through a trade and had never even heard of him before.  The bow was so well built and shot so well I HAD to find out more and well, the rest is history.  

I wouldn't call the Whip mediocre, that's not really fair at all.  It shoots 10gpp quite well.  If you're really gonna get into the bowholic, searching for the 'One Bow to Rule Them All'...for YOU, I can tell you right now that Excalibow doesn't really exist.  You'll just have to enjoy trying a lot of bows like the rest of us and learn all their little personality differences.  All of them are unique in some way.  All of the bows I have tried are a different recipe that perhaps gives away a little of something in order to increase performance in some other category.  It's just how it is.  YES, I believe I have discovered a few different makes that come awful close to Excalibow but really a bunch of them are wonderful performers.  You need to go with your gut...I would establish a list of priorities on your bow choice and if it were me, I would take care of the basics first...first decide what shapes you like/ the look of, maybe decide on a narrowed range of length choices, then focus on getting something with a grip that will work, then decide on things like noise level and forgiveness, and then go from there with stuff like cast/speed.  Don't get so caught up with arrow speed.  Cast is more important.  I have owned a few bows that were lightning fast with a lightweight arrow (to me less than 8gpp) but as soon as you used 9,10, or 11gpp or even more they would just become dogs.  

It sounds like you're zeroing in on the Chinook, that's great!  If it were me in your position I would opt for one that's either a 1pc with phenolic riser or if you have the coin a 2pc with the phenolic and bow-bolt.  It will not be a heavy bow like a 3pc, but it will have 'just enough' to be really really pleasant to shoot and also carry in the field.   Test drive one like Jared suggested.  Report back.

[nineworlds9]

PS:  if the only bow you've shot on the list is the Cascade, man you're in for a treat.

[snowplow]

What do you guys think of a 58" Big Jim Buffalo?

I missed this one before. For some reason I think it looks good for a forward handle style r/d.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by snowplow:
What do you guys think of a 58" Big Jim Buffalo?

I missed this one before. For some reason I think it looks good for a forward handle style r/d.

Snowplow,

one other that isn't mentioned here is a Timberghost. I believe he goes as, ARRidgerunner, or something like that.  He makes some short bows.  

There are a few in the classifieds right now.  3 piece take downs with short risers.  Beautiful bows!
Daniel