3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: Wolf reintroduction  (Read 1487 times)

Offline Bowwild

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5433
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2014, 04:42:00 PM »
The video leaves out a very important, more impactful event in Yellowstone....the great fires of 1988.

Those fires destroyed thousands of acres of mature timber. This opened the ground to more sunlight and rain. Burned trees provided nutrients to the soil. Then early successional growth of grasses, forbs, shrubs, and young trees began to flourish.  These brought in more and diverse bird populations, small rodents, etc.  The fire had far more impact on stimulation of early growth than the reduction in herbivores like elk and bison by wolves.

This video is mostly BS from a tree hugger (I'm a retired wildlife biologist and forester by the way) that wants to give the wolf far more credit than is due.

I'm for the restoration of as many wildlife populations as possible as long as man isn't removed from the equation. If the author of the video wants to be honest he will remind people that the top of the food chain, Man hasn't been restored to the Yellowstone ecosystem.

Offline Mark Baker

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1633
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2014, 04:57:00 PM »
Funny...my uncle from TX asked me what I thought about this very clip.   Here is how I answered him in an email....  

Good photography.    Although I respect the narrators viewpoints (David Attenborough, I think), much of which may be true, there is a lot of underlying facts not told.  The "deer" he refers to, mainly consist of elk.  
 
Yellowstone was one of two of the last herds of elk left in the country at the turn of the century.   It contained the only real herd of buffalo, as well.   Virtually ALL the elk and buffalo that now exist in the lower 48, can be traced genetically to these herds.    To save and grow these herds,  the govt. eradicated wolves from the park.....it took the governments best trappers, at a time when they could use poisons on carcasses...40 years to do it.   By mid-century, wolves were gone from Yellowstone.   The herds rebounded.    And, consequently, America's elk herds were replenished via transplants from these herds.   Buffalo too, but their fate was more controlled by ranching, private property, etc.    Buffalo are just mostly unmanageable, without killing them.  
 
The Park's northern herd of elk, near Gardiner, where I live, hovered somewhere between 20 and 30 thousand animals.....surviving drought, harsh winters, and all the predators that existed already in the area (including some of the native Timberwolves, that were already coming back on their own...I saw one personally in the Park about 1980).   Moose, mule deer, and antelope were plentiful as well.   Grizzlies were also making a comeback of sorts.  
 
The Federal Government, despite the concerns of locals that live around the Park, re-introduced Grey Wolves....a non-native species to the ecosystem here.   It costs taxpayers millions of dollars.....and still does.   By doing so, they also violated their own rules on many counts....that's another whole discussion.    Now don't get me wrong, I like wolves.  I just don't like how THESE wolves were shoved down our throats.  Fast forward to today....not twenty years after the first wolves were brought to us from Canada.  
 
The northern elk herd in Yellowstone has plummeted from 30 thousand to less than 5 thousand.    Moose are very rare to see anymore, and largely non-existent....and by the way, this is not just happening in the park, but 60 miles north of it where I live, and a big chunk of Southwest MT, and also ID.   Mule deer numbers are very low right now....to the point that hunting for does has been stopped pretty much statewide.   There are still lots of coyotes.   Lots.  
 
I'm not saying that wolves are doing the killing firsthand...but they certainly are the straw that has broken the back of one of the key strongholds of ungulates in the country and surrounding areas.   Lots of questions and cherry picking of facts...on both sides of this issue.....going on here.   Here are a few more for you.   Grizzly bear numbers have skyrocketed.   They easily take over a wolf kill.  Many don't even hibernate anymore....there is plenty of food for them all winter.    Mt. Lions, which kill one deer/elk each week per cat....suffer the fate of having their kills taken by the wolves....and so they must kill even more.   Wolves themselves have to kill more to make up for the bear takeovers.    If one cat has to kill a deer or elk a week to survive, imagine what a pack of 20 wolves will kill, and then add in more to make up for the ones the bears take.   I'm not sure about this number, but I think there are well over 70 or 80 packs of wolves.   And by the way, hunters are no longer killing anything around the park...since numbers have plummeted so drastically.   Whole economies built up around hunting elk on their yearly migrations are gone.   Many of these are family businesses passed down for generations.   Of course the "wolf watchers" are supplementing that somewhat....but the cost is greater than most of the country knows.   Again....these are not even native wolves, but a much bigger, more aggressive species.  
 
You can buy 5 wolf hunting tags in Montana.   You can shoot them, or trap them.    Pretty much the same thing in Idaho.....but we are not even putting a dent in the number of wolves.   They just keep expanding their territories, way beyond what was ever envisioned.  Initially the Feds wanted to establish 10 viable packs of wolves, and then de-list them.   Again.....there are about 70 plus packs in the Yellowstone and surrounding areas.  
 
There is a lot more to this issue.   Personally, I think it's cool to hear a wolf howl.   I also think they are one of the most amazing animals out there, and via their social nature, also at the top of the food chain.   But putting wolves back into an ecosystem that was no longer "right" for it, was probably a mistake.   We have squandered successful management  that took decades...nearly a century really, and lost a whole lot for "wolf" sake.   Sure there is a few more aspen trees....whoopee!   Not enough to change a rivers course.    The Yellowstone river this spring washed away an acre and a half of my property that we have been paying taxes on for nearly 40 years here....add that the 2 or 3 other acres we've lost since wolf re-introduction.....giant cottonwood trees, vegetation of any kind....anything in it's path, and all.   There is no stopping a big river....so I'm not buying the premise of the film quite yet.   Not enough time has passed, even at the rivers headwaters, where it is somewhat smaller.    
 
Sorry for the diatribe....but be careful what you hear about this topic...either side of the issue.     The truths lie somewhere in between.   We will now have to deal with wolves on a big playing field for years to come, so that some New York or California yuppie can drive his family into Yellowstone and see a pack of them devouring an elk.    Oh yeah.....too bad wolves don't kill and eat buffalo, much.   The Park service will now be forced to kill about a thousand of them this winter, as
they have exceeded their carrying capacity.   Be prepared to hear the eco's yell about that one soon!
My head is full of wanderlust, my quiver's full of hope.  I've got the urge to walk the prairie and chase the antelope! - Nimrod Neurosis

Offline wingnut

  • SPONSOR
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 6179
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2014, 06:02:00 PM »
The key to this discussion is really what we are managing for.  If you want nature to take it's course and for man not to be in the equation you have the right situation.  The alpha predator will eat itself out of house and home and die down eventually.

Unfortunately we don't live in a that world.  Here the alpha predator is man and the states make a decision to manage the game as a crop or not.  Idaho for one has taken the not line and as a result loose tens of millions a year in out of state hunting revenue.  Alaska on the other had sees the light and controls the predators where they can and reaps the reward of hunter dollars.

If you think that the "green" dollar from the wolf lovers off set the hunter dollar you are very naive.  We will see how this turns out but my prediction is not very good.  I can say that Idaho has seen it's last dollar from me and that Alaska will see a lot more.

Mike
Mike Westvang

Online durp

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1066
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2014, 06:58:00 PM »
as much as i hate this topic i will add just a bit...

take what stickbow and mark baker said and times it by 2 (me)

that said here is what is going on with the regs...

you can hunt bear (2 tags) in unit 7 and 9 from spring till fall except for august...why it's closed in aug is beyond me...the problem is access is very limited in both units...unit 4 and 4a arent much better...cats are also over populated.

also fish and game has dropped the price of n/r elk and deer tags by 100 bucks each...res can by n/r tags starting the 1st of aug...why...cuz there aint no elk to hunt and n/r dont want to spend the money to go camping...whitch is what it has come to for me most of the time.

we in the panhandle lost all cow hunting a couple of years ago and we also lost 1 full week off our bow season...what does that tell ya

we can kill 5 wolves and trap 5 each year...fish and game have tryed to kill them from the air with limited success...

for those of you who want to hear a wolf howl come on out (fish and game needs your money) BUT for those of you who want to hunt elk save your money and time and buy beef.

the next step is a draw system for res and non res

Offline stalkin4elk

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 389
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2014, 07:14:00 PM »
All good points above.
A couple of points not mentioned are that wolves run elk on their winter ranges, mostly closed to humans, at their most difficult survival times 24/7. This is when seasons are closed to let them regain strength but they can't survive non stop pressure. Even legal seasons have closed night hours.
Next point  is  that our own hunter dollars via Pitman Roberts Act is hijacked by loopholes in the ELJA or Earth Liberation Justice Act to fund the anti lawsuits.
Yellowstone is not natural and is one of the most strictly managed ecosystems in the country...by humans.
Also most antis hate ranchers. Realize most quality migratory big game winter range is on the lower elevation ranches or game ranges. Make ranchers lives more difficult and too often the habitat becomes condos void of elk.

The antis are master politicians, media savvy, well funded.Take them seriously folks.

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2014, 08:34:00 PM »
once you have them, they become like a cancer!  They're the fat guy at a buffet that the shop has to kick out for eating to much, they don't quit.  They'll move on to the next buffet!

Even up here. Some years we rarely see moose in our valley we trap, which is very near Bryan and Kevin Dills moose area, actually its one drainage away, and a good buddy traps the parallel drainage to use which all ends at the valley of death, or whatever Monty called it.  They think its a giant secret  ;) .  I drew a cow tag for their valley and was blown away by the wolves in the upper drainage a couple years back.....Its no wonder Bryan killed that nice blackie.   I believe a lot of those wolves are part of the same pack we're trapping as well.  We've tried getting in on a bowhunt for moose but found to hit the headwaters of where we're at is almost impossible.  We've got idears, works in progress.  My buddies getting up in years however.

Anyways......

Someone posted on here, healthy.   That is the main goal.  Though I'd like to say none, the first time you're days alone up here in a tent, on a river bank wondering when the next bruins screwing with your gear and a wolf lets loose...the initial guttural growl that transforms into a howl will make your skin crawl.  I've had them near my tent doing this, and it will curl your toes!   There is no serenading to sleep I'm looking for the closest weapon I can get my hands on lol!

As a trapper, we can trap/hunt 60% of a pack yearly! and not, repeat NOT reduce its population on an annual basis!  A wolf is a phd level trapping game up here.  You may catch one or a couple but putting any dent on them unless you're good and have the time/resources (lots of miles and traps) you're not going to get it done.  

Good luck with your wolves and finding a healthy balance, it doesn't exist unfortunately!  And if it did that healthy balance cannot be maintained.   The ecosystem WILL come to a balance on her own.  Think early 1900 game numbers, where deer were scarce, the giant goose herds didn't exist.

Alaska for you guys wanting to hunt moose, is targeting to reduce its moose numbers drastically!  The last 5-7 years we've had significant moose hunts, targeting cows.  I'm NOT a wildlife biologist.  But it's pretty plain to see when you kill the cows, numbers drop.  You guys down south have seen this with deer!  Try southeast PA, or central Mn on for size.  It happens fast!  It started with the QDM movement.   From se pa almost the hole way to the raystown lake area, it was a common story amongst hunters I've met.  There's deer but nothing like a few years ago.  Mn was no different, 5 deer gun tags no draw, puts the hurtn on a population.   I remember growing up getting all goofy when I'd draw a doe tag the first 2 years, by year 3 I was bowhunting deer on my own, buying a 2nd doe tag for cheap.   Had a woods full of deer including some monsters!   Little did I know than what a special woods that was.  Now a development is going in on the adjacent large track, the deer populations as a hole are significantly reduced.   Coyotes were rare are a regular critter, and possum enmass.

Get it while the getting's good fellas, our way of life is about to significantly change in our lifetimes, stating the obvious I know....its going the wrong direction fast!

Offline Sixby

  • Tradbowhunter
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2014, 09:04:00 PM »
Wolf= Human hunter replacement unit. Introduce wolves and eliminate hunting.
There is only one choice for hunters.
God bless, Steve

Offline Ron LaClair

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5405
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2014, 11:49:00 PM »
We live in the present, we dream of the future, but we learn eternal truths from the past
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.
Life is like a wet sponge, you gotta squeeze it until you get every drop it has to offer

Offline Hud

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2242
  • 360-921-5779
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2014, 03:02:00 AM »
The Feds were unprepared for the reintroduction of the wolf. They were told it would be good for the balance of nature.

They were happy to see a few wolves move into northern Montana, and eventually establish a pack (Wolfer by Carter Niemeyer). However, they were not prepared for the success of their reintroduction programs, or the unintended consequences, the rapid expansion of the wolves territory and decline in wildlife populations.

Wolves breed and kill to feed their young, the young leave the pack to establish a new pack, then another and another. The wolf does not recognize boundaries of any kind, it goes where it wants to find a mate.  As wildlife numbers drop, they will feed on whatever is available.

The problem was dumped onto the States to manage, but it will become increasingly difficult to find funding to control wolves. A drop in revenue can be expected as licenses and other fees increase and numbers of hunters decline, due to the lose of seasons and hunting opportunities.

Eventually, it will be difficult to control the wolves territory and numbers. The States will lack the funding and resources to manage the increasing numbers of wolves.

License fees and other fees are on the increase in the West. What will the market support? How much will you pay? Anti-hunters won't pay.

Coyotes are found in metropolitan areas throughout the west, will wolves be next? Time will tell.
TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline picapica

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2014, 03:12:00 AM »


“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.”
― Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2014, 09:04:00 AM »
Hud ,   I don't live in remote alaska.  Until last year I ran multiple lines including one from my home.    I ran between two major cities traveling a swamp.  The first year he showed up I was stunned.   That line is a couple of pockets of cats.   Initially I thought giant cat.   It wasn't long before I figured out why he picked off my sets and avoided them.  Year two I caught him.    This wolf and another smaller wolf, was living in folks back yards picking the occasional moose off.  The easy pickings were the dogs on leashes ! The dogs allowed to roam had a chance but not much !

Here recently we've had issues with hole packs taking large breeds off chains!   Yes they will come in!  This male was big and toothless. The pack that checked him out from time to time was neither old nor toothless.  To bad they didn't linger a little longer.  

Food will dictate their territory not man!    Good will dictate the pack size as well.    When they're done with wild game, the farmers are really going to be in for it .  

A lion is a sniper of the animal kingdom.  Cunning, personal, stealthy.  The ultimate predator

Wolves are in a pack also an extremely intelligent sophisticated hunter!   There is nothing they can't take down on this continent if they want it!   Nothing!!!!

I can't believe for a millisecond that a educated wildlife manager who had major tape to cut didn't know what could and likely would happen!    And now..... They need to be held accountable!

Offline RickE

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 132
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2014, 10:12:00 AM »
Lots of good discussion.  Love the picture "magpie".....probably my favorite one of Leopold.  I don't mind wolves in moderate numbers, along with coyotes and other predators.  Just more things for me to chase after.  Of course with politics and mismanagement the hunting part becomes lost in the shuffle.  As someone who earned a degree studying raptors I've heard all the arguments before.  I tend to sit in the middle.  I like predators but for many there needs to be some kind of 'control'.  I won't sit here and tell you that they don't have an impact, because they do.  How much depends on how many wolves and how much prey there is.  We could argue back and forth all we want on how many wolves there should be, how many elk, how many moose, etc.  There is no 'right' answer...it's mostly just opinion.  

We have wolves here, lots of them, and yet our elk populations have been expanding over the last several decades.  Where I hunt elk, I've seen wolves chasing them and I plan to go back this winter and hunt them.  I grew up hunting animals for their fur.  In fact I paid for a considerable amount of my education with fur money.  I'd love to get a crack at a wolf but I hold no malice against them.  They're just another neat part of the ecosystem.  

For those who dislike predators so much, I've often wondered why that is?  I've come to believe it's because we often see some of the worst of ourselves in them.....don't know.  

I do know though that I'll trade you wolves for 'CWD Management' any day.  Good hunting, Rick.

 

 

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2014, 04:11:00 PM »
Rick,   I have no hate for wolves.    When you (I) first seen(n) one everything stops.  You don't forget it.

The main issue in this case is the predator pray cycle vs healthy game herds and human conflicts mostly with pets and farm animals.   My only point of even posting is to depict the 2nd ultimate predator for what it is, which I know most here understand.

You brought up a very good point. What is the magic #.  The problem with it is this.  Even with hunting seasons there will never be enough control to maintain it.   That's years down the road.   Who sets it is whose driving the bus.  This is what bothers me the most!    Out own states game dept as mentioned has gone quite a ways beyond the status quo few hear about.

Offline Moots

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 629
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2014, 07:46:00 PM »
My family homesteaded in Jackson, WY south of Yellowstone National Park.  I am in my late 50's. My father is almost 80.  He tells me that in the early days in Jackson, they had timber wolves.  These timber wolves were smaller than the wolves brought in from Canada that are now in this area.  According to my father, these larger Canadian wolves have decimated the elk and deer populations unlike anything in the early days in Jackson.  They are large, fast, run in large packs, and are very efficient hunters.

Offline picapica

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2014, 03:55:00 AM »
A sheepherder from the Wind River reservation named Leo Cottenoir has been credited with the last verified Greater Yellowstone wolf kill in May of 1943 (prior to the wolf killed south of Yellowstone in 1992.)  Leo estimated it weighed 70 to 80 lbs and the photo shows him holding its mounted head.

 

Offline sweeney3

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 882
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2014, 08:52:00 AM »
One is left to wonder how deer and elk evolved before we did them the favor of killing off all the predators?
Silence is golden.

Offline DanielB89

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2824
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2014, 09:41:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
Basically what this guy is saying is Wolves are good and Deer are bad? Deer ruin rivers and make them meander. meandering streams kill beavers, fox and birds. Deer are the demise if all living beings.

I like how one can make a  huge assumption then fill it with crap to support a hypothesis.

Then again, its on the internet so it has to be true....    :rolleyes:      :rolleyes:      :rolleyes:  
You are right Cyclic.  Just look what Abraham Lincoln said about it.

"Everything on the internet is true"
- Abraham Lincoln
"Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD And whose trust is the LORD. Jeremiah 17:7

"There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death."  Proverbs 14:12

Offline LongStick64

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2117
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2014, 09:55:00 AM »
Wouldn't mind the wolves introduced in NY, they would do a hell of a better job than our own DEC.
Primitive Bowhunting.....the experience of a lifetime

Offline Sam McMichael

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 6873
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2014, 03:14:00 PM »
I have really mixed feelings about wolves. True, they are a natural predator, and in times past, they helped maintain a balance of wildlife. However, the number of prey animals, and the space they live in is much diminished from the old days due to the increased human population in many of the areas where they have been introduced. In these more contained areas, I fear they can easily overrun the prey animals. All I know is that LOTS of people have reported dramatic decreases in deer and elk in the areas of reintroduction.
Sam

Offline Charlie3

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 179
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2014, 03:45:00 PM »
As a resident of Northeast Washington I have heard the wolf debate ad nasium and have really lost my appetite for it. I have not read every post in this thread; however, thought I'd pose the simple question. How ever did ungulates survive for thousands of years alongside wolves prior tu human intervention? We cannot perfectly know the numbers of game animals prior to European colonization of the Americas, but can agree they have been reduced dramatiacally since that time, and furthermore we can agree this was caused ONLY by excessive hunting and habitat destruction by humans.

I'll also point out that Yellowstone is not the ideal place to study the triangle between Elk/Wolves/Human hunters...I trust you guys are sharp enough to figure that one out.

This is a touchy subject for sure...you fellas that do not live/hunt in an affected area, make sure you take any wolf reintroduction "news" with a grain of salt.

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool born and bred hunter, usually vote hardline right, ect ect, but still feel the need to point out that when game management was left to the discretion of white hunters in America it did not go very well. Just about every game animal was hunted to extinction from its pre-Columbus range.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©