3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: Wolf reintroduction  (Read 1488 times)

Offline Charlie3

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 179
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2014, 03:47:00 PM »

Offline Sixby

  • Tradbowhunter
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2014, 06:12:00 PM »
Read your history guys. The Lewis and Clark expedition almost starved to death and lived by purchasing and trading for dogs from Native Americans to eat when they got into the western portion of the continent.

Elk and deer were practically non existant and the Indians survived by yearly bison hunts that required a tremendous undertaking.

Could it be that wolves had already decimated the herds to the extent that there were only a few breeding animals left? At that time even wolves to the large degree lived on bison.

Our present or past present huntable herds of game animals exist due to game management largly provided for by sportsman revenus.

 These revenues are way down due in large part to present policies that are driven politically instead of by biological science. Laws passed by public sentiment , (anti Hunting and anti gun) no bear hunting or couger hunting by use of dogs, re-intro of another major alpha predator (wolf) have decimated the game population in many places to the point that sales of liscenses and revenue have and are dropping off.

This only amplifies the lack of proper game management by reducing patrol revenues, research,planting , ect in many western states.

There is no room for wolves and hunters unless predator populations are reduced across board in order to accommodate human hunters. That sirs is not part of any of the present agenda. The sooner we recognize this the more probable the hope of our maintenance of hunter opportunity will be assured.

I do not see that happening when even the so called hunting community is divided and partially ignorant of the facts and the agenda of those that wish to eliminate hunting and institute gun control which is actually what is driving this to a large extent.

God bless, Steve

Offline Charlie3

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 179
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2014, 06:41:00 PM »
Another thought provoker-

Ever wondered how it is the area of the world with THE MOST Grey Wolves (Alaska/Canada) also has an extremely large and healthy herd of Caribu, Moose, Deer, Bear, Sheep, Goats, ect ect ect?

Offline Charlie3

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 179
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2014, 06:50:00 PM »
Humans are tasked with caring for lesser species, regardless of what your religious beliefs or lack thereof are. My view of this does not include eradication of a species because I do not see the utility of its existance. God, nature, evolution, whatever you think, put creatures in place for a reason. Yes, wolves will kill sheep and calves, and heck they might go so far as to kill enough Elk to mandate that hunters get off their ass and work to get a kill of their own. That does not justify eradication of the species.

I wasn't around during the early 1900's, but I'd bet the farm hunters back then were crying conspiracy when the first game laws were enacted.

Offline Bill Kissner

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1048
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2014, 06:53:00 PM »
Quote
There is no room for wolves and hunters unless predator populations are reduced across board in order to accommodate human hunters. That sirs is not part of any of the present agenda. The sooner we recognize this the more probable the hope of our maintenance of hunter opportunity will be assured.

I do not see that happening when even the so called hunting community is divided and partially ignorant of the facts and the agenda of those that wish to eliminate hunting and institute gun control which is actually what is driving this to a large extent.

God bless, Steve [/QB]
What Steve has said is the way things are and will be. Years ago before the wolf introduction I hog hunted with a fellow from Montana. We were discussing the pending introduction and he was all for it saying "I would just love to hear a wolf howl in the wild". My argument was, "if wolves decimate the elk/deer herds and the states have to eliminate a predator, which predator do you think will be reduced first?" The answer then and now is the human hunter.
Time spent alone in the woods puts you closer to God.

"Can't" never accomplished anything.

Offline LongStick64

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2117
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2014, 07:14:00 PM »
Truthfully I think you guys have a solid argument in that if wolves control the deer/elk population why would you need human hunters, they wouldn't even need to pass any legislation for it, hunters will be discouraged by lack of game that the reduction of hunters will follow the reduction in game. Trust me if my NY legislators can get wolves in NY they will, simply to get us out of the woods.
Primitive Bowhunting.....the experience of a lifetime

Offline wingnut

  • SPONSOR
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 6179
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2014, 07:32:00 PM »
Charlie,

You might want to check your facts before you post them.  Alaska has extensive predator controls so that they have healthy huntable herds of caribou and Moose.  They don't have deer in wolf areas.

The caribou herds are in decline as a result of predation.  Hunters take a very small number of the animals compared to the wolves, bear, etc.

Moose numbers are inversely proportional to the amount of wolves in the area.  Last year in the area we hunt the harvested 110 wolves during the winter.  

Again if you want a huntable population of game animals you need to manage to that end.  Today's management is to remove the human hunter from the equation.

Mike
Mike Westvang

Offline Charlie3

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 179
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2014, 08:06:00 PM »
AK still has far more wolves than in the lower 48, yet game numbers are high enough to hunt. Obviously we do not have enough data prior to European settlement to accurately guage how things were when wolves were not controlled or hunted by man compared to today.

I have chosen to believe that 300,000,000 and counting humans in the US have more to do with declining game numbers than less than 10,000 wolves in the lower 48 and Alaska combined.

Grrr I always get sucked into this arguement. I will stop. I respect those who disagree with me, but believe what I do after considerable thought, reserch, and first-hand observation through the eyes of an avid bowhunter and outdoorsman.

Offline Bonebuster

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3397
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2014, 08:52:00 PM »
The REAL problem is a lack of common sense management. How can it be, that "we the people" have been FORCED to allow the obvious RECKLESS behavior by a relatively few to accept something that is OBVIOUSLY so wrong.

As with many things in the United States today, what was once right, is now wrong, and vice versa

Wolves are killing family pets in their own backyards. Tax dollars by the truckload are being spent in protecting wolves. The next week, Conservation officers are being PAID to kill problem wolves.

I guess we have to "hit bottom" before "we the people" will not stand for this any longer.

Online Roadkill

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2675
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2014, 09:53:00 PM »
We have no wolves here in Nevada per our game department.  I guess the animal I saw last fall was a coyote with a thyroid problem and a thick black coat.  Only 20 air miles from ID, where they have huntable numbers.  A guy hunting up in area 7 saw a small pack.
I am old enough to remember deer seasons of a week, buck only.  Poaching during the depression probably the cause, but numbers rebounded during good management.  Emotion will not sell the argument and there is no way to get a balance number without research. What is that number?  How about this.  Sterilize all but a few males (ouch), have a regulated season like they have bears here.  Target number identified, limited tags issued, call in as soon as you get a bear.  Once the target number isvreached, season ends, all tag holders notified.
Cast a long shadow-you may provide shade to someone who needs it.  Semper Fi

Offline Stickbow

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 531
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2014, 10:45:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charlie3:
Another thought provoker-

Ever wondered how it is the area of the world with THE MOST Grey Wolves (Alaska/Canada) also has an extremely large and healthy herd of Caribu, Moose, Deer, Bear, Sheep, Goats, ect ect ect?
Have you ever been there?
 
 http://www.adn.com/article/20130306/17-wolves-killed-aerial-control-program-interior-alaska

Offline Hud

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2242
  • 360-921-5779
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2014, 03:02:00 AM »
It might be helpful to understand, that game herds and most wildlife species have increased in the Continental USA since the 1800's.

Wildlife benefited from the new conservation promoted by Teddy Roosevelt, modern day sportsman, and groups like the RMEF.  Secondly, game laws and seasons are a fairly recent development. Finally, the wolves found in the west were smaller than the Canadian wolves that adopted northern Montana as a home, and then were reintroduced in other areas of Montana, WY, ID, WA, and OR.

Early settlers hunted year around and game numbers were far below present day levels. Wolves were held in check by the limited food supply and from being hunted. Over hunting was a problem as herds of buffalo, elk and deer were killed in large numbers.

Fast forward to today. The deer and Elk in these area, had never seen a Canadian wolf until the reintroduction, because the Timberwolf was killed off in the 40's, and the only predators they knew were mountain lions and bears. The deer and elk had an extremely difficult time learning to adapt to this new predator. The wolf was a different predator, it hunted in packs and could run down its prey.  

Mountain lions and bears do not hunt in packs, and they do not pursue their prey until it drops from exhaustion. Canadian Wolves were larger, faster and skilled predators. They had little problem killing their prey.

Game animals in Canada, NW Territories, Yukon and Alaska have lived for centuries with wolves, they have learned to adapt, but control hunts are still needed to reduce the population of wolves, that lack natural enemies.  

It has been documented that deer and elk under extreme pressure from the larger wolves moved into open terrain, towns and residential areas to escape the pressure from the wolves. It has also been reported that wolves have followed.

I would compare the current situation, to lessons learned, but forgotten. The story occurred a number of years ago; a Fish & Game Dept., in a state, decided to introduce muskie into a lake where there was a good population of large lake trout. The problem they thought was the trout were getting smaller and there were too many for the lake to support. They reasoned, the muskie would eat some lake trout and reduce the number of trout. The plant and insect life would flourish and the trout would get bigger. The F&G fellas had not planned for the growth and increase in population of muskie. The muskie was a different kind of predator.

Unfortunately, in a few short years they discover the trout are all gone. Oh well, the fisherman now have muskie.  This is not meant to demean muskie, they are great fighting fish, I've been told.    :knothead:
TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline Mike Schlegel

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2014, 03:23:00 PM »
admin test
Life Member Idaho State Bowhunters
Life Member PBS
Senior Member Pope & Young Club
Life Member RMEF
Member Compton
Cari-bow Wolverine 54@28 "go to" bow

Offline Sixby

  • Tradbowhunter
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2014, 03:56:00 PM »
I also am a longtime observer of nature. Way over 50 years of bow hunting and still going . I have seen wolves where no wolves were according to DFG. I have even reported the first collered wolf in the state of Oregon. It was a young female on the Middle Fork of the John DAy river. DFB live trapped her and sent her back to Idaho. Again I saw a wolf just three days ago that was unseen until this time in a place where no wolves have been reported. It was on the edge of a field off of the Keno Access Road between Keno and Ashland. Or it could have been a dark grey 100 lb coyote.

Wolves have a bad habit of quicky and effectively repopulating far from the areas last reported. For instance the Oregon male wolf that went into Northern California came back into Oregon and mated and has pups that are being camera surveiled by ODFG.
Question is, Where did the mate come from?  I may know. I saw a huge black wolf in the 70s cross the road about 20 yards in front of my truck within a few miles of where I just saw the wolf three days ago.
I believe that we have had a small population of wolves for years but that they have been SSB by hunters and kept in check. One thing is sure. Over 50 years of spending countless hours in the woods and in bowhunting Oregon I have seen five wolves and seen them spread over this time. I cannot tell you how many bears and cougers I have seen during that same period.
Now a breeding population of wolves has been introduced and formed packs. The wolf has come into his own because he is by nature a pack hunter. As previously stated by another poster a wolf pack in a death sentence of any game animal that they decide to take. It operates as a military precision killing machine. It is unlike any of the other predators except the African Lion which hunts in coordinated prides.
Previously the heavily predated wolves opertated mainly as isolated unites but now they are operating in a far more effective way and already making large inroads on the elk and deer population in areas already way overpredated by bear and elk.

So here is my problem and our problem. When game populations reack a natural low due to overpredation human hunter will begin to stop hunting simply because it becomes untenable logistically and financially. I already know many hunters complaining that they have not made a kill in several years. These are really good hunters too. I have personally not made a kill in Southern Oregon for over five seasons. I have previously killed elk and deer with a bow every season before that.
I owned a bow shop and know the hunters. I talk to them and know that they are unsuccessful. I also know the guides and outfitters and they are having little success.

Soon this reaches the point that they either stop hunting altogether or go to a state where there is still a little game left.

That is my experience and this thread is informative and important to bowhunters because it directly effects the immediate future of bowhunting in the west.

I say this because we are the bottom of the hunting totem pole. Bowhunters do not have the lobby that gunhunters have. Guess whose seasons the overpredation effects first?

Well here in Southern Oregon we have had bull and buck only seasons for the last two years. With bull and buck percentages at an all time low it is nearly impossible right now to kill an animal in this country.

Wolves are simply the straw that has broken the camels back, In a couple of years they will be a log that crushes the camel completely.

God bless, Steve

Offline Tree Killer

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2014, 04:10:00 PM »
A fella I know was hunting elk in the Walla Walla unit of northeast Oregon last month. He woke up one morning and there were several bull milling around in the meadow next to his camp, so he grabbed his video camera and took a short video.

Little did he know until later, there was a wolf in the background and the elk were staying in the open for a reason.

This is a still photo off his video...

 
"stickbows, putting the arch back in archery"

Online Burnsie

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2177
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2014, 05:15:00 PM »
Ok, so maybe alpha predators are needed for a healthy eco-system, and maybe the numbers of elk, deer, buffalo...etc that we've become accustomed to have been artificially sustained by management practices meant to provide hunters with something to hunt. It always seemed like a good trade off, hunters provided millions of dollars via license and fees and hunt-able numbers of animals were maintained. And as a side benefit many areas of prime habit were maintained and expanded with these funds.  Federal lands were set aside, along with myriad other conservation projects.
I'm thinking all revenue streams derived from hunters should be pulled from any areas that re-introduce wolves.  Why should hunters have to pay to maintain areas that basically become unhuntable,  let all the pro wolf and eco-tourist who want to see the wolves fund these areas.  We'll see what happens when states have to start limiting conservation projects, laying off employees, closing parks..etc because their major source of revenues dry up when hunters say the heck with it.
"You can't get into a bar fight if you don't go to the bar" (Grandma was pretty wise)

Offline Michael Arnette

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2354
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2014, 01:04:00 PM »
Make no mistake, the reintroduction of wolves in the West is a vital aspect of a step-by-step plan for the elimination of human hunting in wilderness areas. I'm calling BS...These folks would love for our hunting rights and especially the need for hunting to be eliminated. The Wolf will help them meet this goal...it already! As hunter dollars decrease due to low game populations and discouraged hunters, so does our political power
The presence of wolves isn't the problem but the inability to control them properly is. If they were huntable they would control populations in wilderness areas and be thinned out in rural areas where hunting replaced them.

Taxpayer funded reintroduction of predators is out of line

Offline Sixby

  • Tradbowhunter
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2014, 03:55:00 PM »
Burnsie:Ok, so maybe alpha predators are needed for a healthy eco-system

Humans are alpha predators. What you are suggesting is replacement of human hunting by introduction of another alpha predator (wolves)

After posting this I went back and reread your post. I agree with you 100 percent and apologize for my misread.
This statement changes it all.
Burnsie:
I'm thinking all revenue streams derived from hunters should be pulled from any areas that re-introduce wolves. Why should hunters have to pay to maintain areas that basically become unhuntable,
Steve:
However the entire re-introduction process will still eliminate hunters and although right the revenue loss would only hasten the demise of human hunting.

Again I apologize for my misread and I only left what I said to show how wrong I was.


God bless, Steve

Offline Olin Rindal

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2014, 03:34:00 AM »
You cannot control wolf population with out aerial hunting. Not only western states have too many wolves they have the wrong kind of wolf. For the person that's comparing Alaska to the western states you are comparing apples to oranges. Alaska dwarfs the home range of the wolves in the western states. Not scientific by any means but I would bet that per capita there is more wolves in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming than there is in Alaska. If you actually looked at there roaming area. I hope I said that right. The state of Alaska also shoots the hell out of the wolves from the air. It pisses the Feds off and often causes a fight between the two. I actually like wolves but they cannot be given a loose reign. I don't golf so I would like to see more Elk and Deer.

Offline Mark Baker

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1633
Re: Wolf reintroduction
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2014, 09:39:00 AM »
I think it's important for folks to recognize that this is not the States reintroducing wolves, but rather being forced to "deal" with the consequences.   Even in MT there are groups of "hunters" suing the state F&G over the reintroduction and management, when it's really the Federal Govt. and Fed regulation and control and protections that the states must abide by (or else, they are told).   While the politics of dealing with wolves varies, it is a result of states being forced to manage by a directive of US Fish and Wildlife Service, Endangered and Threatened Species directives, and outside (the state) political pressures.   So while you may not agree with how your state deals with it, make sure you assign the blame to where it belongs...
My head is full of wanderlust, my quiver's full of hope.  I've got the urge to walk the prairie and chase the antelope! - Nimrod Neurosis

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©