Tuning without spine?

[ed cowden]

I have been shooting bare shafts threw paper at 5 yards with a bow that is past center so I believe does not use the arrows spine. No arrows from 15-35 to 55-70 and 1916-2018 with 100gr. tip act any different. All are left and slightly high. Next is building the shelf out, but I thought I would ask.

[jamesh76]

Without knowing your bowmake, weight at draw,  arrow lenght etc its pretty hard to give a suggestion based on what you provide.  Personally I would step back farther and bareshaft tune without the paper.  Adjusting point weights and then the lenght of the arrow If needed.  You mention a 100 grain point which in my opinion is light for amost any application unless you have weighted inserts.

[ed cowden]

Weight of bow is 50# at 30" and it is a R/D longbow. My first thought was to start at too light of spine and work my way up to too heavy. I don't know , but I think I am just getting one bounce and they all stay in that position.
   I will say I am doing this because I have tuned before with buttons and rests and then bare shaft fletched shaft. I could see the results. So the lite 100gr point was a starting place and I could use heaver points and brace height to fine tune. Just seems like you have to use the paradox of the arrow to start with.

[Diamond Paul]

Might be kicking off the shelf, all of them.  Move the nock up to 1/2 or even 5/8.  No way a 1916 shoots out of cut past center bow at that weight drawn to 30".  I shoot 28.75" 1916s out of a 45lb recurve drawn to 28, or maybe an 1/8th less.  2016 or .500 spine carbon might shoot, but not a 1916.  I'll bet if you backed up to fifteen yards they would miss the bag to the right.

[ed cowden]

This is going to drive me nuts. I went back to the bow and used a L shaped wire that compound guys use to set their rests up roughly. This bow is not center shot at all but the arrow is pointing out to the left and this is exactly the same as a Hill style longbow I have here. I put the wire thing on a Firefly riser and it was very near center shot. So all the arrows are having to go around the bow like I believe they should. Just for a try I shot a 2018 out of the longbow Hill and it amazingly only rips about a 1/2 " slit. The R/D bow about 4". Can how the limbs track or riser is made or something be causing this. I am going to powder everything up next and see if I can tell how the arrow is jumping.

[BigJim]

Throw away the paper and back up. Shoot at a bag and read the results.
Shooting paper at 5 yards? I'm sure your arrow hasn't begun to recover yet.
.500 spine should work fairly well, but need at least 200g up front.

The 3555 trads come 32" long now and should fit the bill.
Bigjim

[stujay]

X2 with big Jim. Don't believe a bare shaft through paper will give usefull info. A fletched arrow at a proper range a different story. Still prefer OL Adcock's arrow tuning method, or Ryan (S2 Bowstrings) is/has written on what he's found that works with proper tuning. If you are having real difficulty PM him, I bet he'd be happy to give you some pointers.

[Thumper Dunker]

Originally posted by BigJim:
Throw away the paper and back up. Shoot at a bag and read the results.
Shooting paper at 5 yards? I'm sure your arrow hasn't begun to recover yet.
.500 spine should work fairly well, but need at least 200g up front.

The 3555 trads come 32" long now and should fit the bill.
Bigjim

+3  5 yds is way too close except working on form.

[Stalker58]

No one else asked. Right handed bow or Left?
Right handed, your over spine.Put a heaver tip on.
I'd go to a 125gr tip. See if the arrows start hitting more right. If so. go to a higher weight tip, till they hit straight.

[AkDan]

5 yards and paper works fine.  If you believe what you're reading and make the adjustments needed.

If you want to show weak you went the wrong way with point weight!  Load up the tip.

Do you understand dynamic vs static spine?   And the affects of dynamic spine?   Understanding this will help you regardless of what method you want.

[ed cowden]

Thanks for the help. I am right hand shooter. I was only using the paper to get somewhat close. Then I was going to bare shaft and fletched shaft. I have tips up to 300gr that 3 Rivers sales for testing. This first step with the paper was how I use to do it with a Berger button and flipper rest. I just want to see the results on target and know the arrow is stable at close range for best penetration and even if the feathers are wet they should fly good. I was moose hunting in Canada years ago and we had a solid weeks rain. My aluminum arrows lost their feathers and the guide said do you have that bow tuned to shoot bear shafts. I said yes but only to about 15 yards, but the wood arrows still had feathers and I could shoot to 20 yards with them. LOL. I am just investigating and learning and maybe some other fellows can use a tip or two.

[ed cowden]

Ak Dan Nope but where would I find out such things. I really only know how I use to tune by Easton's methods and I could shoot to 50 yards with a bare shaft and cover the same group with fletched. But I never did it shooting off the shelf and using only the arrows spine to tune. See we are taking a step back and not using tuning buttons or rest adjustment to correct. Thanks very much for keeping this going so maybe me and a few more will learn.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by BigJim:
Throw away the paper and back up. Shoot at a bag and read the results.
Shooting paper at 5 yards? I'm sure your arrow hasn't begun to recover yet.
.500 spine should work fairly well, but need at least 200g up front.

The 3555 trads come 32" long now and should fit the bill.
Bigjim

Big 2X on burning the paper....

[Hud]

If you shoot with fingers, the string moves off the fingers and not straight forward, this causes the paradox on most bows. I have found building out the rest little at time will help, given the right arrow.

[AkDan]

I'm sorry guys but throwing away the paper is hog wash!  Its not my FIRST tool but it is A tool that can be used effectively, one of a few  and I'd recommend using them!  I do the exact same thing to reconfirm what I've found in bareshafting and it works when one knows how to use it, and works quite well!  It's not easy to get a PERFECT bullet hole but I've been as close to perfect as you can get and know many others who have as well!  Its also a good place to go back too to double check any changes either in you or you setup!

 Kudo's to a guy trying to make the attempt to tune!  

I opt to bareshaft first, up close, and moving back as I get things dialed in.  Be careful you don't crack a carbon, go too far too fast and you WILL break a woodie!!!!!  People complain about the target medium (arrows not acting exactly like they flew while penetrating), you'll prove to yourself that's not the case usually, in some targets like burlap stuffed with plastic it will move, the idea here isn't FINAL its INITIAL tuning!  I'm NOT bare shaft GROUP testing yet, but do get to that point!!!

There's a lot of books with bits and pieces.  Byrons book has a good bit of tuning and fine tuning info, probably more than more than most in in one book.  Paper tuning is getting phased out by the nay sayers, unfortunately!

Static spine is this.
An arrow deflected on a spine tester.  Measured in pounds or .000"    If you plan on shooting woodies, its an extremely wise decision to either buy from ONE seller, AND/OR buy/build a spine tester!  A spine tester becomes more important if you buy from multiple sources.   This is why MANY have made the change to carbon or earlier on aluminum, consistency no matter where they were in the world or who they bought them from, unlike woods.

Dynamic spine is not a measurement.  Its a reaction. how a arrow reacts, nothing more in its simplest form. If you care you can sit and read Naglers book from the 30's, lots of great info, nothing has changed!  First you need to understand Static spine before you can move to dynamic.

For woods, its a 28" arrow bop to throat, 125gr head.  longer lengths decreases, shorter increases spine.  point weights, more weight decreases, less increases spine.  

It's irrelevant what spine tester you run, as long as you only run one!

Things like braceheight, string material, center or non centershot all affect how the arrows will act and what you need to consider when looking for spine and making adjustments.   Unlike your plunger bows there's little to adjust in, but you CAN go out as mentioned.  If you spend any time reading about the greats, it was said (I have no first hand knowledge obviously), that Fred Bear used to tape cigarette butts to the riser to get his arrows to fly, than built the shelf out after prelim shooting with a more permanent fix.  

Dynamic will effect a carbon/wood/alum to varying degrees but the effect is the same.  Load up the front and you make that arrow bend upon release more than with a lighter head...making it ACT weaker.  Try it.  

Reducing bh makes an arrow ACT weaker, increasing stiffens.

Going to a FF or similar high tech string will make your arrows act weaker, go to a skinny and they'll act weaker yet.

increasing serving weight (center of string) affects dynamic....

tight/loose nocks affect dynamic.

etc etc.....

Being you're shooting carbons, a simple test, play with those points.  Hopefully you haven't cut the shafts down yet!!!!

I would move to group testing to really fine tune things after you're done or think you're done paper tuning.   You can find the info on OL's web page on bare shaft planing.

Nock right (through paper) is stiff, nock left is weak.  A slight nock high is not a bad thing (if you can find Bill Matlocks tuning guide I'd highly recommend it)!

The end result is you cant make any changes until you understand what you're seeing.   Make ONE change at a time!   If you change point weights I'd go 35gr or more change to see results.  Increase more if you're way off isn't a bad thing, but becareful you don't go overboard!  If you cut shafts keep the cuts small, 1/4" or less if you're ocd prone like myself lol.  

I'm going to end with this.

if you're showing stiff and you build the arrow shelf out, how will your arrow act without any other changes?  

If you're showing stiff and go to a lighter head how will the arrow react?

[AkDan]

Now that I have your attention I hope.  

Don't bother powdering.  Here's what I would do until you understand how to tune call some place that sells carbon test packs and pick their brains!  

I'm sure they'll tell you to not paper tune.  My recommendation is I wouldn't use it as my final 'I'm tuned' test .

Since you have shafts a test pack is a waste of money.  

Spend time behind a target.  Make adjustments and learn how to tune.


I'll end with this.   The reason I feel most folks won't paper or bare shaft tune is it immediatly shows the shooters flaws.  The worse they are the more flagrant the flaw will be.    No one likes being beat up about personal flaws!    Tuning a bow is as much about tuning the arrow as it is tuning the shooter!

[ed cowden]

Thanks for the wonderful information and I hope I am not the only one learning from it.

[ed cowden]

I guess I should have called this tuning with spine while shooting off the shelf.

[Brock]

some people try to make this too difficult and use what worked with compounds....different beasts.

10 yards and shoot a bag target working on your form, consistent draw, and release.  Go from there...

[Sam McMichael]

Although I only shoot wood, these threads are interesting. If I ever decide to go to man made materials in arrows, I will at least have a starting point to be able to ask intelligent questions.

I do have a question about paper tuning, particularly at very close distances. It seems to me that at 5 yards, any release problem, ever how slight, could have very significant effect on the paper hole. Am I way off base here? Or, do you tune to accommodate your personal "normal" release?