accuracy question.. honesty please

[medic77]

Thanks everyone, I needed the discussion.

[tenth1]

I can relate.  I grew up shooting a longbow, killing a few big game critters and lots of small game.

In 2001 I happened upon a nice 6x elk, shooting it in what I though was the sweet spot right behind the shoulder blade...  Never found found him, searched for 4 days straight.  I was so sick that I was puking and still have dreams about the release.  

I am just now starting to to get the bug to try this again and appreciate all of very valuable information on this site.

[overbo]

It happens and sorry about your loss.

Now that's out of the way,
This is strictly my opinion on this matter and the very thing has happened to me.

 I truly believe that the benefits of small game hunting w/ bow and arrow will help more to hunt big game w/ bow and arrow than any type of shooting practice one does.

Medic77:

A few things for your consideration.  We often hear it mentioned that someone may have hit the "void" that exists above the lungs, and below the spine.  Unfortunately, no such void actually exists.

       

1.  If you are   in the area of the lungs,  and you are under the spine, you simply can't help but have hit the lungs.

2.  A lot of people assume the spine is just under the hide for the entire length of the back. This is not the case.

       

In the area of the lungs, there is a lot of muscle meat (backstraps) above the spinal column that will bleed profusely for a while, but it's not fatal.  (trust me, I know)

3.  Note the position of the shoulder blade/bone. in relation to where the leg meets the body.

       

A lot of people shoot too far back in an attempt to avoid bone that simply isn't where they think it is.  Notice in the cutaway picture, the perfect kill shot was directly above the leg, a spot most people try to avoid.

Hope this helps.

[mgf]

I like the blank target suggestion. I completely missed a couple of deer during times when my target shooting was pretty decent.

I'm sure there was some buck fever but I may have failed to "pick a spot".

I bought a 3-d deer and shot it to pieces. Before I bought it I set a feed bag full of rags laying on it's side on a box so it was a couple of feet off the ground...similar in size/shape of a deer's body.

Unfortunately I can't say whether or not it helped because I haven't even seen a deer this year. Gun season opens in a couple of weeks so my season might be about over...having never really started.

[mgf]

Something else to consider is how much shooting do you do with broadheads?

Tuning or form errors will show more when shooting broadheads.

Since broadheads and broadhead targets are expensive, I often include a bare shaft or two in with my practice arrows (field/target tips). When my shooting is good, I really don't need fletching inside of 25 yards.

When my shooting isn't so good, those bare shafts will show it as will a broadhead.

[KSdan]

Tooner.  A good set of photos- but notice the skeletal illustration is not accurate either (always a problem with most diagrams and illustrations). It shows the spine too high.  

Your actual anatomy photos are obviously perfect. Hope folks can see, that at the heart (front of chest cavity)- the spine is just shy of being half-way down the deer.  I am convinced many "perfect" hits are above the spine on treestand shot deer.  

Agree on all your counts, including no "void."  Been trying to communicate a bunch of that for years.  

Also- interesting enough too- when the leg moves "forward" the shoulder blade actually moves "down" covering the top of the vitals.  A guy is better to shoot when the leg is "back" thus the shoulder blade is up and out of the way.  

I like to shoot just a few inches above that "elbow-leg joint" of the deer.  

Dan in KS

[SL]

Straight up above the front leg is where to shoot for. A anything behind the shoulder is bad ju ju unless the animal is quartering away. I always try to imagine hitting a basketball between their front shoulders.
Sorry you lost one, it happens.

[Chain2]

Certainly we all have experienced this I'm sure. My thoughts are maybe it wasn't the shooting but maybe it was the sharpness of the head. An old wise hunter showed my how a BH can actually push some things like arteries away rather than cutting. He hunted his entire life with a recurve, even in rifle season. Always got a buck and a bear. He also was a buthcher by trade. Most of his time spent on the kill floor. I've never seen knives or BH's as sharp as he used to get them.

[bowtough]

Unfortunately this is bow hunting and most of us have lost deer due to the occasional errant shot. It can be a game of inches, and at times can be heartbreaking. Like anything else worth doing it takes a lot of effort in all areas of preparation and practice. It is definitely not for everyone. But having said that I think one of the hardest things to deal with is failure. But you have to deal with failure to achieve victory. If you can't then you will quit. Remember you are not going through anything that we haven't all gone through. Don't give up, keep going and you will achieve success, it is right around the corner!      Good hunting and God bless, Gary.

Originally posted by KSdan:
Tooner.  A good set of photos- but notice the skeletal illustration is not accurate either (always a problem with most diagrams and illustrations). It shows the spine too high.  

 

You're right Dan.  I noticed that and I should have taken more time to find a better illustration.  This one is probably closer to being accurate.

   


Thanks.

[KSdan]

Tooner- good!  Your cutaway carcass is perfect though.  PMd you as well.

Here is a spine shot deer.  Trad off the ground.  Dropped in his tracks.

 

[KSdan]

Here is another. Centered through the heart.  Note though: The front leg is hanging unnaturally forward - in real life the "elbow-leg joint" would be directly below the bloody entrance hole you see.  Notice the dark angling line above the vital area.  That is the actual spine.  Notice the dimensions.  This deer was a field dressed 220# deer.

   

[mangonboat]

Been there, done that, got the t shirt. Hated it, just like you, but it happens.

Lots of good advice above. I strongly recommend looking long and hard at the photos and diagrams Tooner posted, and try to get in the habit of visualizing where the anatomic structures are on EVERY animal you see, even the Budweiser horses on tv.When you find yourself looking at a deers vital organs and skeletal components, instead of a blob of brown, you will automatically be better focused.When its too dark to visualize the internal anatomy, its too dark for me to shoot, even when I can see the outlines of  that solid brown body of a deer well withing range.
 
I also endorse the recommendation to practice on "blank" targets. I never practice on a marked target or even foam critters...as I never see any animals with rings on them,etc. I use a burlap sack tightly stuffed with plastic bag from the grocery, Wally world, etc. Its portable,easy to hang from a limb or set on a stump , about the same size as a deer's body. Try not to aim at the same spot over and over but a different spot with each arrow...it really builds confidence when you know you can hit the aiming points that YOU choose rather than the one a target manufacturer chose. Like I say, you're gonna do the choosing in the woods. Finally, I also found that if I am getting flyers, I back up. I do a better job of focusing  on my spot when I have to work a bit harder.

[BRITTMAN]

Tooner great info and photos . Thanks for taking the time to put them up for us .

[medic77]

Really appreciate the pictures and advice from everyone.  I am being really hard on myself but if I had an opportunity at the same shot now I would take it again.  Everything was perfect but me.  That's what is so hard to swallow but it will make me a better hunter and person in the longrun.

[Roadkill]

Cut out a cardboard outline of the typical sized deer for your area. No marks, just a brown outline, and pick a spot, not an area,  helped me get a spot and how to maintain it thru out the draw-anchor sequence.  Lots of good comments above.
If you study tooner's pics, try to get the close leg forward as that exposes the vitals without the elbow

[overbo]

I don't care how much you study the photos. Medic looks and sounds to be an accomplished bowhunter and understands shot angle, sharpness, ect,ect. If you kill enough game w/ a bow and arrow, one will realize that a sizeable % of where you thought you hit game isn't reality.
Buck fever is a very hard thing for some to overcome, me included. I can knock the crap out of my dot and 3D target but for me, nothing replaces shooting at a live animal.

Originally posted by overbo:
I don't care how much you study the photos. Medic looks and sounds to be an accomplished bowhunter and understands shot angle, sharpness, ect,ect. If you kill enough game w/ a bow and arrow, one will realize that a sizeable % of where you thought you hit game isn't reality.
Buck fever is a very hard thing for some to overcome, me included. I can knock the crap out of my dot and 3D target but for me, nothing replaces shooting at a live animal.

I agree overbo, but the point of the of the pictures was to illustrate exactly where the "dot" should actually be.  

There are a lot of very good archers/hunters that continue to have trouble getting the results they want on live game.  They blame it on things such as buck fever, not picking a spot, rushing the shot, the animal ducking the string, etc.  Those are all valid things that do indeed happen, but in many cases the hunter did exactly what he set out to do, and did hit exactly where he thought he did.  Unfortunately, the spot he was looking at, and ultimately hit, was not the spot the contained the vital organs.

Taken in isolation, the good stuff is all pretty much located directly above the leg, not so much behind it.  Get too far behind it and while you might have a fatal hit, you have a very long, often unsuccessful tracking job on your hands.

 

Hitting the spot is only half the battle.  Knowing where the right spot is, is the other half.  Few of us ever hit exactly what we are looking at.  Misses of a few inches right/left/up/down are common.  Why start out aiming at   edge  of the kill zone and not the   middle  (which is almost directly above the leg on a whitetail deer)?

When you start out aiming at the middle, you have a 360 degree margin for error.  If you aim at one edge, you cut that margin for error to 180 degrees.

[mgf]

Good point overbo.

I've shot a bunch of small game but practice/experience shooting at deer is harder to come by. Every year the hunting I have available seems to get worse and I see fewer and fewer deer.

I haven't been able to hunt much this year (nowhere to hunt where there are deer) and I sure haven't seen a deer while bow was in hand.

If I do get in shooting range of a deer this season it'll probably be a heart attack sort of event. LOL

I wasn't going to even buy a tag this season but I got weak, bought one and feel like a fool for sending the state more money.

Unless I can find a way to really make some earth shattering changes, I very may just let it go.

I'm getting pretty good at hitting paper, tin cans and other small and interesting things I find to hang in front of the target bag. That may just be as good as it gets.