Speed loss going to longbow

[Ray Johnson]

I had a Black Widow PSA that I just sold to buy a new Roy Hall Apache longbow/hybrid.It is 45#@28" and my BW was 44#@28".I draw 28".with a 440gr 15/35 Gold Tip with a 175gr fp I was shooting 172 with my BW.I'm shooting the exact same arrow out of my Apache and it is 157fps.That is a 15fps loss and my arrows are dropping 6" at twenty yards.I love the bow.It's smooth,great looking,and very quiet which is the main reason I sold my BW and went to a longbow.Can anyone explain the speed loss or are these bows that much slower?

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Ray Johnson:
I had a Black Widow PSA that I just sold to buy a new Roy Hall Apache longbow/hybrid.It is 45#@28" and my BW was 44#@28".I draw 28".with a 440gr 15/35 Gold Tip with a 175gr fp I was shooting 172 with my BW.I'm shooting the exact same arrow out of my Apache and it is 157fps.That is a 15fps loss and my arrows are dropping 6" at twenty yards.I love the bow.It's smooth,great looking,and very quiet which is the main reason I sold my BW and went to a longbow.Can anyone explain the speed loss or are these bows that much slower?

well, GENERALLY a recurve will out perform a longbow.  It has a lot to do with the design of the limbs(which is why some recurves are faster than others with the same weight arrows).  

I am not familiar with the Apache longbow, but I own a black widow and it makes shooting any other bow hard due to how well I feel it performs.  Though I don't have a chrono, I know that It shoots a pretty flat trajectory out to around 30 yards or so.  But i do shoot lighter arrows(around 9gpp).

Different designs have different results! BW's are known to be a somewhat fast design. Comparing two different bows like that is apples to oranges.

If you really like the feel of the new bow, you just have to shoot it enough till you get used to its trajectory. If you decide you just can't stand that trajectory and really want a hybrid longbow, you are just going to have to go find one that is faster by design and fits in your hand!

Bisch

[David Mitchell]

You may have dropped a bit of draw length as well--not uncommon going from recurve to longbow--even a hybrid style can normally have a lower wrist grip that can shorten things up a bit on draw length. I have owned Roy's bows and found them to perform really well.  Of course, speed doesn't mean that much to me. I much prefer a quiet shooting, stable bow.

[Scott Barr]

Ray,  I have two PSAs.  One at about the draw weight you mention.  Similar fps on my chrono.  I have had several long bows. All quiet and light, which is what I love about long bows.  However, all but ones with carbon limbs, like ACS, shot slower at the same weight.  With 8.5" brace height, cat whiskers 15" and 9" from the end of the string, and a sticktamer, my PSAs are nearly as quiet as a long bow.  Hard to beat combo.  Which is why I keep returning to BWs.

[Archie]

Draw length is measured from the nock on the string to the far side of the shelf.  Your longbow  most likely has a thinner riser than the PSA.  That means that the longbow has to be pulled back another half inch or so to reach 28 inches, as it was measured and determined by the bowyer.  While the distance from the deepest part of the grip to the corner of your mouth is the same for both bows, the PSA was measured at 28", and included (let's say) a 2" riser.  So, grip to anchor would be 26 inches.  The longbow riser being thinner (let's say 1"), if you draw it the same 26" from grip to anchor, the bowyer is going to say it is only drawn to 27", which means the bow is a hair lighter than you think it is.

That's most likely why you see such a difference.

[Blackhawk]

I agree with the draw length solution.  Losing 1" of draw could mean a loss of 5-10 fps...or even more.

Use of a chronograph has resulted in the sale of more bows than most anything else...so pack it away or you will be trading or selling bows.  Ask me how I know.  

[nineworlds9]

First and foremost you need to consider the draw length discrepancy.  

Otherwise, all things being equal...

Its all about differing designs, strings, tuning etc.  Those numbers sound in the ballpark for difference between the two styles of bow, but your mileage will vary..you could pick up another hybrid with more aggressive r/d and have the difference only be 5-10fps instead of 15.  I'm sure the Hall bow is quieter than that BW so that is an undeniable advantage.  What type of string/silencers are you using?  Throwing a skinny hi-po string on the new longbow should make up a good 3-5 fps right there by itself, you'll be good to go...

[Diamond Paul]

Normally, longbows are slower; I don't know any longbow that can match the fastest recurves.  But, they are generally much quieter, so it's a trade off.  At short range, all you need to do is to get used to the trajectory, and it's all good.

[LBR]

Tons of variables to consider.  

Not to step on any toes...but AMO draw length is measured to the deepest part of the grip plus 1.75".  That is usually the back of the shelf, or close, but not always.  

Picking up 5 fps from dropping strands in a string is on the high end in general.  Going from an overbuilt to a "skinny" string may give you that result if you don't add a bunch of weight back by building up the serving.  You can pick up that much or more by working on your release.  

Type of string, how well it's built, silencer weight, etc. can make a difference.  How the nock fits will matter--tight will rob you of energy.

Roy's bows are generally pretty quick.  It could be the difference in bows, or it could be one or more of several other things.

[nineworlds9]

I knew it was only a matter of time before the real know-how chimed in- LBR!

The release factoid is definitely notable, it is something you can notice shot to shot if you pay attention.

Everyone is kinda pointing out that it could be a variety of things, but I will just come out and say it: changing styles of bow cold turkey will definitely take some adjustments!  LOL.  Think of it as a golden opportunity to really learn about bow design and what makes a bow do what it does, as well as all the fun of super tuning.  Whatever happens, I think you'll end up a better archer than you were prior to making the switch, to what degree is variable, but learning a new 'system' can only have benefits in the long run.  

Keep the board posted as to your progress in tuning your new setup!

[KentuckyTJ]

Yep, most LB's don't shoot as fast as the same poundage recurve.

I have found one that does though and I love it. Zipper Nitro. Its is same weight as my zipper recurve limbs and it shoots just as fast. They of course are R/D longbow limbs. Both sets are carbon.

[grayfeather]

my border harrier gl and a&h are a lot faster than my black widow, and the black widow was heaver by 1#.

[grayfeather]

black widow makes great bows ,but I do not think they are known for their speed .

[Terry Green]

combos are faster than some recurs I have long bows there as fast as my black widow PCH

[DaveT1963]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
combos are faster than some recurs I have long bows there as fast as my black widow PCH

X2 - only mine is a PSA

[Diamond Paul]

Some of them are, but I think the fastest bows in Blacky's tests are recurves.  I never worried that much about speed, though.  I've never shot my recurve through a graph.  I just find an arrow that shoots good, and shoot it all the time.  I doubt I get 170, to be honest.

[nineworlds9]

A true wealth of information on the difference between bow designs, basic construction, and HOW they do what they do is to be found in VOL.1 of the Traditional Bowyer's Bible.  VOL.1 to me is a must read for anyone who truly gets deep into trad.

[newhouse114]

My 50 lb Samick sage shoots much faster than my bear 60 lb longbow. Oh well, I love the longbow and it put a bunch of meat in the freezer this year.

[nineworlds9]

My personal favorite bows have always been hybrids.  Best of both worlds.