Speed loss going to longbow

[Charlie3]

Ray, you can obviously see that people have different opinions on what a certain bow design will do. You have the facts since you used a chronograph. Many trad shooters only use the eye test, thus the conflicting "results".

So long as the bows had similar string material and you shot enough arrows through the chrono to have sufficient sample size for an accurate median, you found the answer to your question already.

[CoyoteBryceBowyer]

My long bow (55# Bear Montana) never did shoot quite as fast as my recurve (50# Indian Archery) but I found it to be much more forgiving in the shot and I personally love the way it shoots over the recurve. as said before, different designs will produce different outcomes.

[warbird]

I own both recurves and hybrids. Alot of things factor into performance. The recurves basic advantage is that the drastic bends of its design creates more stored energy. Still
I prefer to hunt with my hybrids. Having a smooth plush draw and quietness. One of my recurves by design just smokes an arrow and no other bow I own compares to its performance.

[Diamond Paul]

My recurve of choice is Wes Wallace.  It's not even close to the fastest recurve I've shot; one of the fastest I've personally seen was one of Rick Welch's designs.  However, I don't shoot anything else as well as the Wallace bows, so that's that.  At the speeds we shoot, I think how the bow feels and shoots for you trumps speed every time.  If I want to shoot faster, I go to a lighter arrow.  Those longbows have something about them, I just can't shoot them well.  Wish I could.

[Terry Green]

combos are faster than some recurs I have long bows there as fast as my black widow PCH

[LBR]

Something to consider...did any of us get into this side of the sport for speed?

[Diamond Paul]

I doubt it, but as someone above said, many bows have hit the road after being shot through a graph!  A fast bow is good, no doubt.  You can shoot a heavier arrow, all else being equal, and get just as flat a trajectory.  I haven't seen all that much difference between traditional bows, although the Dryad I just got is really fast, much faster than what I am used to.  That's more of a super-curve, I guess.  I don't believe I'll ever shoot it through the graph, though.  My friend had a Centaur hybrid type bow that smoked, as I remember.  That was a beautiful bow.

[McDave]

We didn't get into this side of the sport for speed, but comparing two bows   that are otherwise equal, most if not all people would choose the one with higher speed, so speed is a legitimate factor to consider.

The bottom line is that we want the bow that will get the job done best for us, whether the job be putting meat on the table or winning a 3D tournament.  Speed is only one of the factors that get the job done.  OTOH, most of us have come across bows that are just too slow for no explainable reason, even compared with another bow of the same exact model and specs, even some made by top bowyers, and we don't want those either.

It was mentioned that Black Widow was not the fastest recurve around.  The reason for this is not because Black Widow can't figure out how to make a fast bow, but because they want their bows to be fast, forgiving, and reliable, and like every other bowyer out there, they are trying to design a bow that offers the best mix of the three.  They purposely set the grip forward, because that helps to eliminate problems with bow torque, knowing that a forward set grip is also going to slow down the bow, because it means that the brace height is going to be higher than it would be if the grip was more in line with the riser.  Of course, they attempt to make up the speed loss by design changes in other areas, but there really is no such thing as a free lunch.  People who buy Black Widows (or any other bow) buy them because they think they will get the job done better than whatever alternatives might be out there.

I'm not trying to promote Black Widow, but all bowyers face the same design compromises, and it seemed as good an example to use as any.

[Diamond Paul]

I always thought of Widows as being relatively fast for a recurve.  Not the fastest, but on the high end.

[McDave]

Originally posted by Diamond Paul:
I always thought of Widows as being relatively fast for a recurve.  Not the fastest, but on the high end.

I believe that's correct.  Just that they're not as fast as they could be if that were the only thing they were trying to accomplish.

[old_goat2]

To me that seems kind of slow for ten grains per pound, are you dead sure you had accurate Chrono results, if I stand too close to mine I get low readings. You need to be more than an arrows length away from the first aperture. Does it seem like it's really shooting that slow, the six inch drop could be just you adjusting your new sight picture.

[Archie]

I think that you ought scale the bows at the length that you draw them, and then post their respective weights here so we can all see!  Measure from the nock point to the deepest part of the grip, for consistency.

[Ray Johnson]

Wow,I posted that question from my deerstand on my phone this morning.I just now checked the thread from my home computer and had 31 replies.Thanks for all the replies.Now,I'm more confused than ever.LOL.I love this bow and it is a beauty to look at.It's smooth and quiet with zero handshock.It is a very different animal than my Widow was but I'm excited about it.I can hit at 15 yards with my broadheads well enough to hunt so I took it this morning and plan to take it tomorrow.I won't take a shot over 15 yards though.The arrow drop seems significant at 20  yards and it might be some thing that I just have to get used to.By the way,it shoots the same arrows as my Widow did great.

I don't mind the loss in arrow speed but I was surprised by it.It could be the bowstring to I guess.I was using the one that came with the bow.I bought an extra and it is an 18 strand FF made by Stone Mountain.The bow is fairly quiet now.Would a smaller diameter string increase arrow speed without being louder?

The main reason I switched to this Roy Hall hybrid is because my Widow was loud.I could shoot it well and had it made for me in 2008.I hated to part with it but couldn't afford this bow without selling my Widow.I like the light physical weight of the Apache and it just seems to be a better "hunting" bow.I may drop some points in tournaments with my new bow but I hope to get to where I can shoot it as well as I could my recurve.

Thanks again for the replies.If there are any  more suggestions on how to pick up 10-12 fps,I would appreciate it.Arrow speed itself doesn't matter to me but the arrow drop does.If I have to get used to it,I will.Thanks again.

[Diamond Paul]

10-12 fps is quite a bit; you'd have to go to a lighter total arrow weight, a new string isn't going to do it.  Longbows, especially if the one you have is more of an old-school design, pull differently than curves, too, so you may need to shoot it for a while to get used to it.  The more heel-down hand position and different draw-force curve may have you pulling a little shorter than you did on the Widow, at least till you get used to the bow more.  I never could shoot longbows well, as I tend to use a high-wrist hand position, and they feel odd to me.  I love the feel and looks of them, though, and if you like the bow, I'd encourage you not to let the graph sway you too much.  You might start to draw it further as you get more in tune with it.

[old_goat2]

I use a twelve strand on my dryad longbow and I'm pulling about twenty pounds more at a longer draw length, you sure don't need anything more than that. It won't make up all that speed difference but it might be quieter. My bow sure isn't loud. And that's the strand count that comes stock on my bow.

[Diamond Paul]

Are you a gap shooter?  Do you need the speed for your gaps?  Just wondering.  If you are shooting instinctive, the arrow drop shouldn't bother you after you've shot the bow a while, you just need to imprint the trajectory into your brain.  I could see it really messing with you at first, though, especially if you've switched from a much faster bow.  I'll shoot low the first few shots if I switch to a heavier point, but it doesn't take too long to get the sight picture back.  I think you just need to decide if quiet is worth more to you than speed.  I sounds like the noise of that Widow really bothered you.  15fps won't matter if the deer isn't there because the bow was too loud.

[danshao]

With the same riser and sand amo length, my ILF longbow limbs seem to shoot faster than my recurve limbs, same manufacturer and almost same material (black glass on my recurve and clear glass on the lb). Never chronoed the combos but the difference was noticeable by human eyes.

For one thing though, the longbow limbs were initially designed on the 19 inch riser. On my 17 inch morrison riser they picked up quite some preload and speed and pull even harder than my recurve limbs. The riser to me seems to be more of a longbow friendly design because it is a bit on the straight side. So imho the geometry also matters here.

On the other hand, the same string slaps my lb limbs MUCH louder which I don't understand even today.

[danshao]

Forgot to mention the on limbs measure only 2# heavier than my recurve limbs..

[Looper]

A skinny string might be worth 8 or so fps. They have made a noticeable difference on every bow I've tried them on. Practically speaking, though, even at 157 fps, you've got more than enough for any whitetail. You'll just need to shoot that bow enough to mentally adjust to the trajectory.

I've found that it's best for me to just stick with one bow during hunting season for that very reason. I don't want to have to think about which bow I'm shooting at the moment, or if I need to aim differently.

[LBR]

If there are any more suggestions on how to pick up 10-12 fps,I would appreciate it.

Unless you are going from a way overbuilt string, don't expect miraculous gains just from changing strings.  There are no magic strings, just like there are no magic bows, broadheads, arrows, etc.

A properly built string can make a big difference...in shock, noise, and over-all feel.  Lighter draw weights seem to benefit more from lighter strings performance-wise.

Proper nock fit may give you a couple of fps vs. way too tight.

A good, clean release can give you a couple fps. or more vs. a sloppy one.

Pulling through your release--this one trick could make up the difference by itself:
 http://www.safarituff.com/trophies.html  (bottom of the page)

Shooting the bow and getting used to it will make the biggest difference.  My selfbows are slower than my longbows or recurves, but I have shot better scores at tournaments with selfbows because I was practicing more with them.