arrow tuning (right now) need help!

[capt eddie]

I believe that you increase the brace height to increase preload and get more juice. Min brace gives you a longer power stroke and multiplies poor shooting form, which may be part of your problem of inconsistences in arrow flights.

[Pheonixarcher]

Minimum brace height gives a weaker, but longer push. Raising your brace will give a stronger, but shorter push. Meaning more initial energy to induce paradox. If your arrows are showing stiff, then increasing brace can effectively weaken them.

[snowplow]

Am I totally off on this?! I always heard that less brace height equaled weaker spine because it has a longer powerstroke???

[snowplow]

Hmm, I googled it and I get all sorts of people saying either way.

This explanation makes the most sense to me

     

So with a higher brace height, the bow should be quiter (less limb slap on a recurve anyway), more forgiving, slower with a heavier peak draw.  

Do I have this right now? How could I be so off on this? Why are so many backwards on this like me (according to google)? Does it ever act different on different bows? What the heck!

[Pheonixarcher]

To my knowledge, it will only act differently if you go to one extreme or the other. And usually, that will be the result of bringing on another issue, most likely contact with the shelf or strike plate. The closer cut to center the strike plate is, the less of an effect it will have, but it will still have an effect!

Your initial thinking is the most logical (and was my own at one time), but there are more variables to consider than just the obvious. Your diagram is a good illustration of one of those variables. Another important factor is the preload of the limbs.

By shortening your string (increasing brace height), you are increasing the preload of the limbs and creating more string tension. This means that the limbs are already bent more at rest than with a lower brace (moving the center of the working limb length). So they will have more tension (or strength to return to brace), and less string slack and travel. I'm not sure about increasing peak draw weight with a higher brace, as your draw length does not change, but I have not confirmed nor denied this with a scale. I know that a lower brace will generally feel smoother to draw, but again, there are many factors that affect that as well.

It is generally accepted that a higher brace equals a more forgiving bow, but the most forgiving a bow can be is when it is shooting a perfectly tuned arrow!

Yes, you will sacrifice a couple fps by increasing brace, but in my experience, it's not enough to alter your effective range. Again, a perfectly flying arrow will perform better than one that wobbles or kicks even if it is slightly faster.

[snowplow]

Well I talked to Tim (I think it was) at Raptor Archery and with your help also Pheonix Archer, I was able to bring these arrows where I needed. I didn't adjust brace height because I was hitting left and I thought increasing it would make that worse. From my experiences and what I read brace height on these Arrow Dynamic makes a larger difference than any other adjustment including large point weight changes and cutting 2" off the shaft. I'm at my max brace height now and show just a bit weak. So a little more tuning and it will be just right.

Thanks again for all the help!!

[JamesKerr]

I would pay more attention at this point to how the bareshaft is striking the target. Our eyes can deceive us and many times do, but I think you are getting a false weak read on the arrow flight and the true stiffness is showing when the shaft hits the target. A perfectly tuned shaft should both fly straight (relatively) and hit the target pretty straight. I would ultimately recommend a much lower spine arrow. The only way I think you could get that arrow that spines out at .250 to bareshaft out of a 55# bow and 28" draw is to leave it full length with a maximum amount of point weight at the end. I can get the AD Trads to shoot great out of my 60# at 28" Widow PLX that I draw to 27.5" but I have to have 100 grain inserts and 225 grain points. They still bareshaft a little stiff but fletched flight is flawless with them cut to 30". I get even better flight though from my AD Trad lites that spine out at .375 cut to 29" with 72 grain grizzly stick inserts and 200 grain points out of the same bow and they bareshaft perfect. You can get good flight from the arrows you have as all the AD shafts I have shot the spine is much softer on the tail end (I am not real sure how the actual spine of the shaft is measured) So it is possible to shoot a much stiffer arrow than needed from your bow with really good flight, you just won't be able to use an extremely big broadhead like Simmons treesharks but short of that you should be fine. Sorry to get so long winded but I thought this would give the best explanation and examples.

[Pheonixarcher]

Snowplow, I'm glad you are finally headed in the right direction, and that I could help at least a little. Let us know where you settle in at. Your experiences just might help another trad archer! Good luck, and shoot straight.

[overbo]

If you desire a well bare shaft tuned bow/arrow and it seems you are really struggling w/ carbons. Why not try aluminums? I have found aluminums a lot more bare shaft tuning friendly.
Or as Kirk said,
just stick some feather on them and go.

[Diamond Paul]

X2 on the aluminums.

[Diamond Paul]

I think good aluminums have much more consistent spine than carbons; carbons seem to vary quite a bit, this being confirmed by several people with spine testers in various posts.

[snowplow]

Thanks guys, I forgot to mention I did fletch them up. They were still hitting to the left with feathers. Now though both feathered shafts and bare shafts hit center. And the bare shaft flight is pretty darn good. Just a bit of kick but straightens quickly. I couldn't be happier

[snowplow]

Ok, been shooting all night. I have set on a brace height of 7-1/4. That seems to be the ticket and the bow seems to be about the quietest there too.

This arrow setup is 28% FOC and 560 grains so almost perfectly 10 GPP. On paper it is totally awesome. But it does seem a little picky to me. It seems more forgiving than my normal CX shafts, but still doesn't shoot as good as my 10 year old set of beat up Trad Lites.

I really like the 60x120 4 fletch and have shot it a lot in the past with 4 inchers but I couldn't seem to get them to fly just perfect so I fletched up some 3x 5" shields as well just for comparisons. The 3x5 shields definitely fly better. And I have always shot cock feather out or in with 3 fletch but my new bow definitely liked cock feather up much better.

Then I took that 3 fletched one and compared it to my old Trad Lite (also 3 fletch with 5.5 shields) which is my gold standard for perfect flight. It looks like it is going way slower just because there is absolutely not a quiver from it in flight. Both shafts weigh within 10 grains of each other.

The new AD's fly really good, just not next to my old trad lites. The only difference between the two arrows are the old trad lites have 5.5 shields (vs 5") and are 1 inch shorter (29" vs 30"). Both arrows even calc out to 28% FOC as measured on the bench. I have been shooting at 30 yards. I have tried 275 on the front (25 down from my 300 target) and that made the flight worse and actually caused a small kick. And tried up to 350 on front (50 up from my 300 target) and that didn't help at all. Alternatively, the Trad lite still just flies absolutely perfect with 225-275 no problem. The new set of nitro stingers also seems very sensitive to brace height. Not so much with the trad lites.

I am running out of ideas on how to get that last bit out of these.

My theories at this point are

1. Maybe the flight isn't actually better on the trad lites at all, they just seem more visible since they are crown dipped. (doesn't seem likely to me)

2. Maybe that extra .5" of feather makes all the difference? (I dont have any or I'd try)

3. Being 1" shorter has helped somehow? I dont really want to be that short, but I could make it work. I could definitely cut off 1/2" no problem. I am thinking I should cut off half an inch.

Where do you guys think I should go next on this?

[Jake Scott]

A change in string material and construction type will also change a bows dynamic spine requirement.  

I realize its a little late now but this is absolutely true.

Also,
When comparing the flight of these different arrow configurations are you shooting through paper or just eyeballing them as you shoot?  It is my experience that it is extremely difficult to visually differentiate "perfect" flight from "nearly perfect" flight just with the naked eye.  I have to shoot fletched arrows through paper to determine if they are truly flying as good as it looks like they are, and have on more than one occasion been surprised at the results that my "perfectly tuned arrows" showed when shot through paper.

I love bareshaft tuning.  I use It to get my arrows shooting where I look.  As far as arrow flight goes, shooting through paper is a valuable tool.  The good lord blessed me with very good vision, and I have still found on many occasions that I'm not seeing very small problems with my arrows in flight.  Give it a whirl.  Best of luck.

Jake

[overbo]

I would guess those 5.5 feathers are hi-back style in comparison to your 4'' or 5'' feathers. The taller profile will make a slightly out of tune arrow fly very well.

IMO,
Shooting form is the cause of your arrow kick wows. I have never had a bare shaft that ''kicks'' impact perfectly at distances beyond 15 yards. How far are you bare shafting? If your form is good and arrow matched to the bow, one should be able to bare shaft cleanly well beyond 20yds.

[snowplow]

Yep the 5.5 shields are high backs. I am shooting 15-30 yards bareshafting. I was thinking why they are in the target straight is because they are 28% FOC.

I have never paper tuned with a trad bow. I'll look into that. For what it's worth, I wasn't sure if I could trust what I saw as far as flight goes, but I have shot them now so so so many times back to back and every single time 'what I see' is the same. I just put a different 4x4" fletching pattern on my old trad lites to see if they fly worse or what. I figure if they still fly good then the shaft is just setup better. If they fly bad then it has to be the feathers and I'll fletch one with the same exact setup as the other to compare (5" low pro shields). Thanks for the ideas guys.

[cch]

Put some broadheads on and see where they group. You have to remember that you are shooting a short bow and they are alot less forgiving of shooter error.

[snowplow]

Will do Chris. I went and shot my arrows and have some good news. I shot one of my old trad lites that I fletched with 60x120 4" to compare with a new AD orange with the same setup. Sure enough they flew the same. So without a doubt it was the 5.5 hi profile shields that made those arrows stabilize consistently quicker.

I would rather not go 5.5 as it is tighter than I want to my arrow shelf. Is there such a thing as a 5" high profile shield cut?

I have seen them before on arrows but never for sale. Are they burnt?

[cch]

Are you still shooting split finger? If so make sure you are not pinching the string. Also do you have two nock sets on? If not try that. There should be no reason to have to use such big feathers. Also what are you using for a rest and side plate?

[snowplow]

Hey Chris, I am shooting split. It seems like this bow likes 3 under even less than the others. Probably because the length? I do run two tied on nocks. My rest and side plate are new and made of the stick on black leather you get at 3 rivers.

With the 5" shields in 3 fletch I have gotten some shots that flew perfect but very few. Most of the time there is just a tiny quiver about 10 yards out from the bow. With the 5.5" high backs on the trad lites I always get a perfect flight with no discernible wobble at all.

Maybe it's my release at this point?