Please help clear this up. Arrows too heavy/too light FOC?

[mrgreen]

I've been bowhunting for a few years now, compound bow, sorry.
But I've been working on my skills with my recurve because I'd like to use it for deer.
So here it is;
I'm shooting a 55lb recurve and drawing 28". Arrows are CE Heritage 250s cut at 29.5", with a 125gr point (either field or broadhead)
My arrows had 4" para LH fletch (I'm right handed). Arrows seemed fine, shooting indoors. Last week I started shooting outdoors at hunting distances ( 20-25 yds) with a moderate crosswind and I noticed my group opened from about 10" at 20yds indoors to about 3' in these conditions.
From all I've read here over the last couple of years I suspected;
 1) My arrows were spined correctly but need weight added, especially up front to improve the FOC.
2) The 4" fletchings were too straight to spin the arrow and too short to stabilize the flight with any crosswind.

The confusion comes from advice given by a good friend who's the best recurve shooter I know. He happens to be self taught.
He advises leave the fletchings alone, and use a lighter field point/ broadhead.

My plan is to use 5" LH feathers with a proper helical and add weight to the front end. I figured I'd start with heavier field points from 3 Rivers, then maybe weighted inserts.

I hope this makes sense.

What do you think? I could use some help to clear this up.
Thanks,
Steve

[Diamond Paul]

Wind, shooting outdoors, and the difference in the light conditions and distance all contribute to the group opening up.  Big feathers will make the wind affect your arrows more, not less.  More foc probably will help, but if they are tuned, they are tuned, and more weight will probably untune them.  You will not shoot as tight in wind as you do indoors, period.  4" feathers should be plenty unless you are using some huge broadhead.

[Blaino]

a moderate crosswind won't move and arrow 3'!


i say keep shooting what you got and don't worry with the foc stuff.... i'm by no means nocking foc, efoc, uefoc and all the front loading carbon stuff because i do it and it does work! but if you are just getting into shooting stick bows than just keep it simple and have fun shootin what you have.

besides, deer ain't hard to shoot through....

[mrgreen]

Well, I've been shooting this bow on and off for about 2 years. Target and 3D, all indoors. Mostly shoot my compound. The last couple of weeks I've focused on the recurve, since I have a doe in the freezer.
So, practicing under hunting conditions is showing flaws.

[Piratkey]

I dont know all your set up but I think you arrow spine is too hight,CE 150 could be better.

[ISP 5353]

From 10 inches to 3 feet is a pretty big increase!  When you were shooting outside, were you shooting field points or broadheads?  

I try to shoot in the wind often and it can be tough.  Trying to shoot broadheads that are not tuned really well in the wind, can be eye opening.

I do not have a particularly high FOC arrow, but I still have good flight in windy conditions.  I shoot VPA 3 bladed broadheads and use 3, 4 inch LW feathers.

Tinkering and tuning can be frustrating, but take your time and get it right.  Keep shooting outdoors and in the wind.  It will get easier and it will pay off big some time when you have a shot at a big buck and the winds are howling!  Good luck!

[katman]

How did you tune your arrow to the recurve?

[mrgreen]

Right.., so i'l try to fill in some blanks.

Piratkey, I thought with 55lbs 250s with the proper weight head was correct. I can try 150s, I have a dozen because I have 45lb limbs for the same bow.

ISP 5353, I was pretty annoyed when the group came apart. I was just missing tennis balls on top of my block target. When a 5-10 mph wind picked up I had to search for arrows in the grass. I was shooting field points, when they started diving under the grass I switched to Small Game Heads, same weight.

katman, um.. I don't know. Not being a smart ass, When I went from 45 to 55lb limbs I just double checked the BH and moved up in arrow spine. I felt since 45lbs were shooting well, I didn't mess with much. Of, course 45lbs was shot entirely indoors.

Tha bow shop I use is a little weak on stickbow knowledge.

[beendare]

Great advice from the guys above... best to shoot a bareshaft with your other arrows and how that comes out will tell you what is going on

[mrgreen]

I know this might be a stupid question, but in this case, bareshaft means what insert and what weight point?

[Cavscout9753]

Bareshaft just means to remove the fletching. You can also wet the feathers and press them down and steam them to pop them up when done. Whats your over-all arrow weight? I like my 160 grain heads for the added FOC yes, but combined with the wood shaft they make for a good weight arrow as well. Heavy (within reason) arrows behave better for me in a varity of situations.

[mrgreen]

Cavscout, thanks. I don't have the arrows with me, they're being refletched. But I weighed them the other day, I remember them being less then 10gpp, I thought that was light...no?

[Bladepeek]

It sounds to me they might be a bit stiff with that light a point. I shoot 200 gr field points and 3-blade out of my 45# bow with CE150s. For a cheap reality check, put a heavier point on (like 175 gr maybe) and see if it improves. Costs practically nothing to check it and if it improves things, you can play around with some heavier points to see what it really likes.

[mrgreen]

Bladepeek, that's exactly what I'm going to do. 3Rivers has a mixed pack of mid-heavy field points. I'll try different weights up front and see what works.

[MnFn]

I started trying to tune CE150's to my 55# @28" recurve (Kota).  They were too weak, and I cut them down to the shortest possible length.

When I moved up to CE250's I ended up using a 100 grain brass insert with 160 grain STOS heads. I don't remember now but with screw-in adapter, glue and head I was over
200 grains in the head alone and then the 100 grn insert took my arrow to over 300 grains up front.

So I think your arrows are too stiff as well.
Keep experimenting, you will get it.

[mrgreen]

MnFn, thanks for the response. So, you suggest that the 250s are too stiff, which could/should be improved by adding weight up front? So my plan for swapping out my 125gr heads for 250gr or 300gr heads would be a simple way to test this?

Am I on the right track?

I thought the accepted rule of thumb was;
         At least 10 grains per pound of draw weight at the archers draw length, with a weight forward balance. Or, something like that.
 
This seems backed up by what some of you are saying, included MnFn.
 Is there a book someone could recommend that explains this?
Or is it stickied here somewhere?

[Cavscout9753]

The 10 gpp rule is a pretty time tested starting point. Some get by with less, some bowyers require it right around there. Try playing with either Stu Millers or 3 Rivers Archery spine calculators. The 3 Rivers one was in part built by Stu Miller I believe only its free and theres nothing to download. Two words of caution, 1) enter everything in exactly true. Test your draw length, be sure on center cut, etc. 2) its a starting point, not the gospel. It cant accurately factor in how clean your release is, wind, etc. For many people (myself included) its a great tool that is pretty on the spot. YMMV. By bumping up point weight yes, you will effectivly weaken the spine, add weight, and increase FOC. Theres no draw back within reason. (Loading 350 grains up front will kust nose dive your arrows, etc). Carbons can handle a good bit of weight up front. Heavier arrows quiet the bow and stabilize better. Studies also show that up to a certain point a heavier arrow is more efficient, even travel further. Start with the calculator and a test pack of heavier tips or just play with tip weight on the calculator. With carbons, length is everything. 1/8" or 1/4" of cutting a carbon back can realllly change the spine (ask me about my pile of carbon shafts in the corner of my garage, haha). Good luck and my last bit of advice, dont get too stressed with it yet. If you get frustrated, put it down and come back in a day or so. Tuning (or master-tuning) arrows is not for the timid. Use the search function here on tradgang and read, read, read before any major changes - i.e. Any cutting. Good luck!

[mrgreen]

Alright, so I took some measurements and double checked a few weights. Then applied the data to the 3RA spine selector.

First, I used an uncut shaft(can we say that here?) marked to measure draw length. I found my draw is 28.5" instead of 28".

My current setup / CE Heritage 250 29.5" w/ 125gr head and 14gr insert 3 4" fletch and 20gr nocturnal nock.
     Results:  Dynamic Spine= Bow-65.7    and Arrow  87.2   so, I understand that's not great.

Now my proposed setup:  
Same shaft and measurements, the only changes are
100gr inserts w/125gr head and 3 5"fletch.
   Results Dynamic Spine= Bow-65.7  and Arrow-63.6

So I guess I'll go ahead with my planned changes.
Just to be sure I'm going to try heavy field points before I swap my inserts for the weighted ones. Luckily the inserts are in with hot-glue, not epoxy.

Thanks to everyone for all the help.

And if I'm completely wrong it's not to late to tell me.

[Cavscout9753]

Looks like you found the problem. As you saw, the two numbers should be within +/- 2 of eachother. Though I've gotten away with a slightly bigger spread.  The new set up should work out pretty well. And if beefed up inserts arent your bag no worries, its 2014 and 200+ grain tips come in a variety of cuts and styles. And I wouldnt worry about being weaker 2 or so, with carbon they recover so fast that a little weak is better than a little stiff IMO. Good luck!

[mrgreen]

Cavscout9753, thanks for all the help. I found it funny, when I thought my draw was 28" the numbers were off by only 0.3.

At least now when I practice I can be confident that the only thing screwed up is me!
Believe it or not, that'll help me focus.