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Author Topic: arrows hitting tail right  (Read 643 times)

Offline doublearrow

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arrows hitting tail right
« on: December 04, 2014, 12:20:00 AM »
I'm hoping for some guidance on an issue. I bought my Sage recurve 3 years ago and I've shot it some but mostly just flinging arrows hoping to hit the target. Now I'm committed to hunting with it and I'm at a loss. I haven't shot it in several months, but my issue is every arrow I shoot fletched or unfletched heavy or light point the nock end is pointed to the right.
 My arrows are cut to 28" and hang off the shelf approx. 1"
 Samick Sage 45@28" and I understand the samick weights are not correct a lot of times.
I bought the Gold Tip traditional tuning pack from 3 rivers. It has 4 different spined arrows all cut to 28".
  I've got insert weights and field points and broadheads from 100 grains to 250 grains.
  Bareshaft or fletched the issue is still there from 6 yards in. Stepped back to 7 yards most combinations I have tried are back to hitting the target straight on.
  At one point I thought the 3555 arrow with 175 grain eskimo head and 10 grains of weight added was the ticket. It seems I shot it the best several months ago when I got tied up and stopped shooting. Now that I've been shooting the last few days I have no idea where that came from. I've tried cock vane out and up no change in arrow hitting.
  Does anyone have an idea where I should start? I did the bareshaft tuning along time ago and that's what got me to fletch the 3555 arrow. But it's not right either. I appreciate any help or advice or direction to go.

Offline doublearrow

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 12:41:00 AM »

 
 

Offline Diamond Paul

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 12:48:00 AM »
I would try the 15/35 arrows; you are, at most, drawing only 27", so less than 45lbs, maybe 40-42lbs.  Your arrows are cut really short, which stiffens carbons a lot; they might be too short already.  You would have been better off leaving them full length and starting there.  A 15/35 is a .600 spine group arrow, I believe, and lots of people shoot that spine out of similar weight bows at similar draw lengths.  Tail right tends to mean overspined, although it could be lots of things, mostly form, that is causing it.  Try the lighter spined arrow, but it's going to need a pretty good bit of point weight to spine right, if I had to guess.
“Sometimes the shark go away, sometimes he wouldn’t go away.” Quint, from Jaws

Offline Flying Dutchman

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 04:00:00 AM »
Times two. And maybe you are plucking your string?
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that string! [/i]                            :rolleyes:              
Cari-bow Peregrine
Whippenstick Phoenix
Timberghost ordered
SBD strings on all, what else?

Offline KSdan

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 06:54:00 AM »
This will explain what is happening.  At this point, don't worry about getting "groups" of arrows as suggested in this article- just realize what is occurring and what nock right is telling you.

 http://www.acsbows.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/tuninglongbowsandrecurves.pdf
If we're not supposed to eat animals ... how come they're made out of meat? ~anon

Bears can attack people- although fewer people have been killed by bears than in all WWI and WWII combined.

Offline BigJim

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 07:44:00 AM »
It will without a doubt be the 1535's but you have had them cut and they may already be a little stiff.
A big problem with tuning, if you aren't already in the ball park with your arrow selection, is false readings.
Here are some of the questions I would ask when helping people determine where to start:

Bow type and center cut :
I know that it is a Sage and is either cut 3/16" or 1/8" past center (I don't know for sure).

Draw length and how did you determine this:
you say it is roughly 27"s. Was this figured while someone watched you shoot or a static measurement while you tried to replicate what you normally do? (my experience is that mens draw length is seldom what they think it is..hmmm  :)  )

Draw weight at your length:
 most can only guess at this and I would guess yours to be around 42lbs With what info you gave.

Do you shoot split finger or three under:
This can be very important as if your arrow nock fits the string properly, you will experience major tuning issues with out having a nock of sorts below as well as above the arrow while shooting three under...not so much so with split.

What is your nock height:
Each bow and shooting style will depict your need for proper nock height as this is basically tillering the bow for your style and three under will always have a higher nock requirement and average about 5/8"-3/4" depending....where as split is usually around 1/2" (measured from height of shelf to underside of nock point)

There are many other factors as well but mostly small ones and this is before you get to the nitty gritty of shaft length and point weight...brace is less important as long as you are in range.

If your bow is making lots of noise or you are experiencing undue shelf wear, these are warnings.

Think about this, if you are having to use a set up that is significantly out of the norm: what is really going on here? I know your mother thinks your special, but your bow does not. Chances are you are missing something.

You will now begin to hear stories on how others are making odd things work and you should try them. this can get expensive. If you need new test arrows, we sell them individually...never could understand why one would have to buy three different spines when we know at least one of those is going to be absolutely worthless for anything but tomato stakes.

Good luck,
BigJim...  my credentials: owner of traditional archery business helping people with their set up's for seven years (many years personal experience previous). I specialize in carbon arrows and sold nearly 4000 dz last year and likely to exceed 5500 dz this year...no not a typo. We also sell quite a few wood arrows/shafts too. I will also tell you that I don't have all the answers and this is a trial and error thing as there is too much that is not tangible.
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Offline Hud

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 12:14:00 PM »
2X what Big Jim has said, the only thing I would say about shooting into a foam, bale, etc. at any distance is the effect the paradox has on the arrow at the time it enters the target. If you start at 6 ft and take a step back each time you shoot you will see different results. Secondly, try some Johnsons baby powder on the shelve and sight window, blow off the excess and repeat each time. If the arrow hits it will leave a faint line. Thirdly, read this information on paper testing, it may help:
  http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/
TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline doublearrow

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 03:50:00 PM »
Wow, thanks for all the help.
Mr. Jim I will be ordering some extra arrows here shortly. The number one reason I have arrows cut at that length, is I don't have an arrow saw. I had them cut to what my compound arrows where and hoped to tune from there. I will order full length arrows and find a way to safely cut them down as I tune.
  My draw length was using the clothes pin method and adding an inch or so. I thought it was correct due to the fact that my draw seemed to be little shorter than what it was on the compound before I sold it.
  You mentioned another big flaw I did not realize. I have been shooting 3 under, with only a nock on top. Hence the arrow sitting on my finger when released. I didn't realize this was a no no but I can see why.
  And yes I've seen where guys make oddball stuff work. I tend to shy away from doing that. This is my first recurve and I don't want to get into the habit of forcing something to work.
  One last thing is I've been using the stock string that came with the bow. I've since ordered a fast flight Flemish string, I'm assuming once this comes in it could have a visible impact on the flight of the arrow.
   Hud, lol I thought long and hard before actually posting wondering if it was the material I was shooting into causing the arrow to appear this way, but it sounds like I've got some bigger issues to hit before I goto that point. And I will do some paper tuning.
  Again I appreciate the big help and time you all have offered. Ryan

Offline Stone Knife

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 05:42:00 PM »
Others mileage may vary but the 3Rivers spine calculator has been spot on for me for two different bows with carbon and alum.

   Spine calculator.
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game,
but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.


John 14:6

Offline JRY309

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 06:38:00 PM »
I had bought some used carbons that were about an inch past my draw and showing alittle stiff.so I thought I could tune them by adding more weight upfront.They got worse the more weight I added showing even stiffer.They were bouncing off the rest.I did tune the same spine to that bow but I started full length and they ended up about 2" longer.With carbon arrows I now start with a full length and let my tuning determine their final length.I find that using carbon arrows it is nice to have a way of doing your own cutting and tuning.I made up my own saw with a Harbor Freight mini chop saw.I made up a jig and have less then $30 in my whole saw.

Offline doublearrow

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 07:17:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stone Knife:
Others mileage may vary but the 3Rivers spine calculator has been spot on for me for two different bows with carbon and alum.

   Spine calculator.  
Interesting changing the string and strike plate drastically changes the dynamic spine. What dictates whether or not you use a strike plate? Or are all bows supposed to have one?

Offline doublearrow

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2014, 07:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JRY309:
I had bought some used carbons that were about an inch past my draw and showing alittle stiff.so I thought I could tune them by adding more weight upfront.They got worse the more weight I added showing even stiffer.They were bouncing off the rest.I did tune the same spine to that bow but I started full length and they ended up about 2" longer.With carbon arrows I now start with a full length and let my tuning determine their final length.I find that using carbon arrows it is nice to have a way of doing your own cutting and tuning.I made up my own saw with a Harbor Freight mini chop saw.I made up a jig and have less then $30 in my whole saw.
I"ve learned my lesson I found a thread mentioning the jig with the harbor freight saw, I will do the same

Offline Stone Knife

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 08:27:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by doublearrow:
 
Quote
Originally posted by Stone Knife:
Others mileage may vary but the 3Rivers spine calculator has been spot on for me for two different bows with carbon and alum.

   Spine calculator.  
Interesting changing the string and strike plate drastically changes the dynamic spine. What dictates whether or not you use a strike plate? Or are all bows supposed to have one? [/b]
if you don't use the generic bows you can add the thickness of the strike plate
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game,
but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.


John 14:6

Offline mahantango

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 08:28:00 PM »
Am i understanding correctly - at 6 yds. arrows are hitting the target nock left, and when you step back they impact straight on? At 6 yds. you are probably still seeing some paradox, especially if you are a little stiff. Those .600's should be pretty close, maybe even the .500's if you hadn't cut them. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about nock orientation. Bareshaft out to at least 20yds. playing with point weight, and when they hit where you are aiming fletch 'em up and you're done.
We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline doublearrow

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 08:40:00 PM »
They are hitting nock left at 6 yards. Every arrow and every combination I shoot. When I back up most combinations are ok as far as orientation to how they hit. I didn't pay to much attention as to where I was hitting.
  I've shot deer from 6 to 41 yards with a compound and figured I would have or take an average a lot shorter shots on the recurve as in 6 to 15 yards.

Offline Diamond Paul

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 09:01:00 PM »
I would not do any more tuning till you get that string; I didn't notice what you said about the string till now, but a ff string will require a much stiffer arrow than a dacron string.
“Sometimes the shark go away, sometimes he wouldn’t go away.” Quint, from Jaws

Offline BigJim

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 10:39:00 PM »
spine calculators and spine charts are great for compounds and great for sales. For all the hundreds of combinations that could change the way an arrow flys, they ask only a few questions. I'm sure they are spot on for some just like a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Unfortunately Harbor Freight has raised their prices a little on the saws.
I have purchased a bunch of those to offer as a convenience to my customers. they will already be set up with abrasive blades and ready to go. You will have to build a jig if you want to speed up the cutting. Should be available next week.\\
thanks, bigjim

bigJim
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Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2014, 07:33:00 AM »
if everything you are shooting is too stiff, keep adding point weight until they fly right....as someone stated above, at very close yardage you might be seeing paradox...too many variables but you really should tune at a further distance.

I don't see any variance- 5 yards to 50 on how my arrows hit, but they're tuned to my bow.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Stone Knife

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2014, 12:34:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BigJim:
spine calculators and spine charts are great for compounds and great for sales. For all the hundreds of combinations that could change the way an arrow flys, they ask only a few questions. I'm sure they are spot on for some just like a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Unfortunately Harbor Freight has raised their prices a little on the saws.
I have purchased a bunch of those to offer as a convenience to my customers. they will already be set up with abrasive blades and ready to go. You will have to build a jig if you want to speed up the cutting. Should be available next week.\\
thanks, bigjim

bigJim
Jim they do work if you put the right info in the blanks, not just a gimmick as I posted the one 3rivers has was spot on for my two applications. I'm not sure how you can make a blanket statement that they are just good for compounds, it's another tool that can be used if used right.
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game,
but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.


John 14:6

Offline Flatshooter

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Re: arrows hitting tail right
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2014, 12:56:00 PM »
That's BigJim! Where he sees a need, he oft times fills it!

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