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Author Topic: Light arrows and deer?  (Read 3498 times)

Offline robslifts

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2007, 11:12:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hoebow:
Ok here is a formula for us scientific types.
grains/450,800m x arrow speed squared= ft lbs of energy. 40= good for deer 50=good for elk. your case
392gr / 450,800 x (your arrow speed squared)=ft lbs
And remember Dead is Dead no matter what formula you use
nice analogy  where did that come from but yes dead is dead and shoot what is comfortable with you I have heard of a friends daughter getting one with a 28lb bow with a rozor sharp broadhead   it all depends on the hit
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Offline vermonster13

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2007, 12:15:00 PM »
Nice Chad. Good eating there. But here you are hunting with bait.    :p
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Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2007, 12:22:00 PM »
People don't usually plan for the best possible outcome in any area of life, otherwise, no one would buy insurance. Life is peachy, I never have wrecks, I am in complete control, lightning will never strike my house, no one will ever slip on my wet sidewalk, a tornado NEVER has hit my town before.

Life doesnt work that way, though, does it? Plan for the worst possible outcome, and you will be pleased with the results when THAT happens.

If everything goes perfect, you will STILL kill the deer, and yes, your arrow will be sticking a little further int he dirt on the other side.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Dave Lay

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2007, 12:42:00 PM »
Well said Ray..
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Offline LV2HUNT

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2007, 01:05:00 PM »
Congrats on the deer! I am with Ray and the others for the reasons stated.

Offline SteveB

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2007, 01:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hoebow:
Ok here is a formula for us scientific types.
grains/450,800m x arrow speed squared= ft lbs of energy. 40= good for deer 50=good for elk. your case
392gr / 450,800 x (your arrow speed squared)=ft lbs
And remember Dead is Dead no matter what formula you use
My setup comes to 35.42.
According to the formula - not good enough for even deer?  :eek:  

51@28 - 420 gr arrow at 195fps - not enough for deer?

Either I did the calculations wrong
               or
the formula is wrong
               or
the interpretation of the number needed is wrong.

Can anyone tell me which it is?

Steve

Offline Papa Bull

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2007, 01:34:00 PM »
I think "insurance" is very important and the best "insurance" is shooting a setup that gives you the greatest chance of a hit right in the sweet spot at unmarked yardage.  A "light" arrow in the breadbox will kill 100% of the time.  An arrow anywhere else... maybe if you're lucky, you'll still hit something vital.  I've shot at unmarked yardage long enough to know just how important a flat trajectory is for minimizing the high and low misses that are, far and away, the number 1 cause of "oops missed again" syndrome.  

Trajectory at unmarked yardage is incredibly valuable.  It minimizes the difference between the point of impact when we think our target is a few yards closer or farther than what it really is and that difference is often the difference between an ugly miss and a clean kill.  

But everyone has to call their own shots on this and play the odds the way they see fit to play the odds.  If they think they're better off with a really heavy arrow that they think might improve their chances of a kill no matter how badly the deer is hit; that's one way to look at it.  Another is to play the odds for making a good hit and flat-shooting, lighter arrows may be just the ticket.  Your game.  You choose.   :)

But ping pong balls and golfballs are very, very bad science.  There is literally no comparison whatsoever between that and heavy or light arrows.  I really wish everyone who ever thought that was a good way of explaining their preference for heavy arrows would think about it a bit more.  You'll throw both just about as fast but one is 17 times heavier than the other.  Ping Pong balls weigh 2.7 grams and golf balls weigh 45.93 grams.  That would be equivalent to a comparison between a 400 grain arrow and one weighing 6800 grains (approximiately one full pound).   Golf balls and ping pong balls and snowbanks tell us nothing at all about archery, I'm afraid, because the comparisons are so grossly exaggerated and improperly applied as to be completely meaningless.

All that said.... once again, the real point, I think is that if you shoot one arrow weight better than another at unmarked distances within which you plan to hunt, use that arrow, whether it be 1000 grains or 350 grains or anything in between because when it all comes down to the moment of truth, any arrow within that weight range from a hunting weight bow will provide plenty of penetration for a clean kill as long as you hit the kill zone and if you don't do that.... all bets are off and we can only hope lady luck gives us a clean miss, instead.

Offline beachbowhunter

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2007, 01:43:00 PM »
Hey Chad...lighten up and smile next time!  :D
Ishi was a Californian                   :cool:

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2007, 01:53:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cjones:
I have read so many posts on here by people wanting to know how much arrow weight ya need to kill deer. I shoot 50# at my 29" draw length. My arrows weighed in at 392 grains and i like to shoot snuffers. Now will this be enough to kill a whitetail?
Make some freezer space and fire up the grill!   :thumbsup:

Offline Papa Bull

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2007, 01:55:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
"A deer can be killed with most any combination if no heavy bones are struck but what is needed is something that will crash through where the going is tough." – Fred Bear; "Hunting Arrows"; published in Ye Sylvan Archer, 1943.

"all else being equal, penetration is the name of the game" – Howard Hill; referring to the success or failure of any given hit; "Hunting the Hard Way"

I've got a collection of broadheads recovered from rifle-killed whitetails, collected for me (still imbeded in the tissue) by commercial game-meat processors in Georgia. Somebody, somewhere is using arrows that aren't penetrating enough; at least on some hits on some whitetails ... and it's more than just a few!     :)  

Ed
Ed, some thoughts for you on this.

Re:  Quote #1...  I think this was the same Fred Bear that shot at animals as far as he could see them even if he couldn't see them.  At that point in time, I think Fred was hoping to bludgeon beasts to death no matter where he hit them and he wasn't always very successful with that approach.

re:  Quote #2.  I couldn't agree more with this one.  But I have to say that the "everything else being equal" part really tells the tale but is often overlooked.  Changing the weight of an arrow changes it's trajectory and changing trajectory affects how likely the arrow will or won't be to hit our mark when we inevitably shoot for the wrong distance.  In fact, we almost never get the distance quite right and can only hope we're not off far enough to miss the mark completely.  That's where it pays to pay attention to arrow weight.  A rule of thumb I believe is good to follow is that the bigger and tougher than animal, the bigger and more forgiving the kill zone - err on the heavy side of arrow weight.   The smaller and lighter the animal, the smaller and less forgiving the kill zone - err on the lighter, faster, flatter side.  With Cape Buffalo, there's a very large and generous kill zone - getting adequate penetration through the ribs is the real challenge.  With whitetails, the kill zone is the size of a sheet of paper and you're shooting at unmarked distance.  Hitting the kill is the biggest challenge; penetration is the easy part.

Re Quote#3....    Ed, I'd love to get figures from you regarding where those arrows were located in the deer that were rifle shot and recovered.  How many of those deer had arrow heads extracted from their heart or lungs or even the chest cavity?  My point is that the chest cavity is where we're supposed to hit the animal.  Arrow heads recovered from shoulders, hips, spine, etc., only tell us that an archer missed.  We don't know what weight bow he was shooting, what he might have hit first with the arrow and I'd wager that based on recovering only an arrow point buried in bone, we can't really know bow weight, arrow weight, distance shot, arrow flight, etc. etc. etc. and, therefore, really can't make any solid conclusions except that the deer suffered a non-fatal hit from an arrow that wasn't shot into the heart/lungs.

Offline the Ferret

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2007, 02:58:00 PM »
Well that arrow isnt light for a light weight bow.  :bigsmyl:  

If he were shooting a 40# bow which IS legal here in Ohio, that would be almost 10 grains per pound of bow weight    

If a 10 grains per pound of bow weight on a 40 pound bow is enough to kill a whitetail,(and the state has determined that it is, and the experience of many has determined so as well) certainly that same arrow, shot out of a heavier bow flying much faster than it would if shot out of a 40# bow, would/should be plenty lethal.

Am I advocating shooting sub 400 grain arrows? Certainly not, and would rather see guys shoting arrows in the 500-600 grain area (which are what my arrows weigh shot out of mid 40# bows) but at 400 grains it's not a a soda straw for petes sake. If it was a 200 grain arrow I'd be screaming with the rest of you , but 400 grains is certainly adequate for deer sized game.
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Offline Carbon Caster

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2007, 03:25:00 PM »
Congrats!!!

Mickey,

You know what gets me is guys complaining about someone shooting a 480 grain arrow from a 60# bow and then reccomending a 480 grain arrow as being PERFECT hunting weight out of a 40-45# bow.  LOL!!!  Something tells me the deer don't get out their slide rules and calculators to make sure the arrow that just went thru their lungs is capable of killing them before they fall over DEAD!  I would also suggest that a 400 grain arrow out of that Zipper has more KE than a 500 grainer out of the same poundage string follow selfbow.  I personally have no problem with guys using HEAVY arrows or Light within reason.  I hunt with an arrow somewhere in the middle, but have a good friend that uses SUPER HEAVIES.  If you are just shooting whitetails and such, I say shoot them if you got them.

Disclaimer- If you are hunting the BIG critters Dr. A is studying, I highly reccomend paying very close attention to his studies and being prepared with heavier arrows and maybe the single bevels.  Whitetails and BUFF are apples and oranges in my humble opinion.  Millions of dead deer can't be wrong.  LOL!!!

I also think arrow tuning and FOC may make more difference in penetration than 100 grains of arrow weight if the tune is not as perfect.

I am going to go attempt my own experiment in a bit.  570 grain Carbon with Razorcaps shot out of a 55# @ 29" DAS.  I wonder if I could shoot thru a Buck and a Doe tonight????  I sure am going to try.  I already put a moose and a whitetail doe on the ground with that set up and I have a couple more deer tags buring a hole in my pocket, so I will sacrifice for the cause of Science.  LOL!!!
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Offline Ted A. Young

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2007, 04:19:00 PM »
"Now will this be enough to kill a whitetail?"

Errrr .  Seems you answered your own question ther CJ.

"I went back to the house to get the camera and to get some traking help."

Was that pretty little lady for tracking or just a nice picture?  Good job CJ.
Ted A. Young AKA COB.  When I was young I spoke as child.  Now I'm older and got more sense I can't get any one to listen to me!

Offline the Ferret

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2007, 04:37:00 PM »
CC I also agree that if you were going after elk, moose, brown bears, polar bears, musk ox, large boar hogs, any of the large African game I'd want a bit more in both bow and arrow weight, but whitetail deer? Doesn't take a lot to kill a whitetail.
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Offline DesertDude

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2007, 04:39:00 PM »
Mickey,  

Thank You......!!
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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2007, 05:07:00 PM »
Folks sure do get bent out of shape re the arrow weight issue, almost as much as they do when talking about bow weight.  I'm amazed at the speed at which people have become experts on both topics.

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2007, 05:32:00 PM »
Papa Bull,
there is no such thing as an UGLY miss....only an UGLY HIT

With all due respect, if someone needs to worry about arrow drop at twenty to twenty five yards, they have other problems far greater than arrow weight/bow combination.

No one said anyone needs to shoot incredibly heavy arrows. On the other hand, a 51 lb bow at your draw and a 394 grain arrow? Is the bow as quiet as it can be at that weight arrow? I bet not.

Is it going to HURT anyone to shoot 100 grains more in that scenario? I think not. Unless you are a spot shooter at extended yardages and a hunter SECOND, or a hunter who likes shooting stuff at black powder ranges, I don't think your argument works.

Shooting a lighter arrow doesn't guarantee you are going to hit anything any better than shooting a heavy arrow does..and you cannot shoot animals as if they are spots on a target- because animal movement is a variable we CANNOT control...and sooner or later its going to happen to everyone.

When it does, I know I am shooting the most arrow weight I can, and if I don't kill it, it won't be because I didn't give myself every chance by shooting as much arrow weight and momentum possible-still maintaining great arrow flight, given my setup.

Respect for your quarry trumps EVERYTHING in this discussion because we are talking about taking lives.
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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2007, 05:38:00 PM »
Robert, you made my point for me. NONE of those recovered heads were from inside the chest cavity - because their penetration stopped before they got that far. Yes, some were stopped on shoulders or spines, but some were also stuck into entrance side ribs. Judging from appearance of the imbedded head in relation to the bones involved, I would say most were on angling impact. Was the angle selected by the shooter, or did the deer jump? Was the arrow deflected by a bit of grass or leaves? Doesn't matter. The outcome was the same; a non lethal hit on a shot where the angle of impact indicates it could have been a killing hit ... if the arrow had penetrated enough to reach the chest cavity.

The others? All they show is that bad hits are going to happen, no matter what. That's even more reason to use an arrow setup that will perform even on the worst of hits. It might not turn every single bad hit into a clean and humane kill, but it will do so for more of them than a lesser arrow setup will.

It is never wise to hunt with a setup that REQUIRES the shooter to make a perfect hit in order for his shot to be lethal. Animals are not practice targets. When we shoot them, our purpose is to kill them. Unlike a poor hit on the range, a bad shot on an animal ends up with more than just a poor score; and it makes no difference whatsoever WHY the hit was not ‘dead center’. Your arrow should be capable of killing on ANY hit that’s HIGHLY LIKELY to happen, not just on the ones you are fortunate enough to 'hit perfectly'.

Among the bowhunters we guided in Africa (none of which can be called bad shots, in fact, most were WAY above average – at least on targets); on hunts were multiple animal taken were the norm; I can not think of A SINGLE ONE who did not make at least one poor hit ... but CAN think of a few who didn't make a single perfect hit, and some who didn't even make a single 'well-placed' hit. Virtually every ‘non-recovered’ animal was a result of poor arrow penetration. That’s not based on just the appearance of the penetration at the time of the hit. Many of these animals subsequently required putting down with a rifle; either after a long follow-up, or later, by the game scouts. I got to actually examine many of those non-lethal hits.

There's no penalty when you err on the side of ‘too much’; there’s definitely is a penalty when it’s “too little”. The ‘I can hit more accurately at longer ranges with a lighter arrow’ or 'using a heavier arrow will give me more poor hits at longer range' arguments shouldn’t even be raised. Bowhunting is not about hitting at longer ranges; it’s about the challenge of pitting your hunting skills against the animal, beating them at their own game. Well, unless you’re one who bowhunts only so you can kill an extra deer or two.

If one is not bowhunting for the joy and challange of bowhunting, or doesn't have the desire, time, patientce or skill to learn to get close to game before shooting – please, please, please - just use a rifle.
 

Ed

Offline ishiwannabe

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2007, 06:10:00 PM »
Wow....this snowballed quick! Congrats anyway...Im happy for ya no matter how much or how little the arrow weighed.
"I lost arrows and didnt even shoot at a rabbit" Charlie after the Island of Trees.
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Offline DesertDude

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Re: Light arrows and deer?
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2007, 06:11:00 PM »
Question?  At what GPI is an arrow considered Heavy? Or is the GPI index a wrong place to measure it from?  If a 50# bow shooting a 600gr arrow is @12 GPI. Most would consider this an arrow on the heavy side (not super heavy) for a 50# bow.  Now the 600gr arrow becomes to lite for a 70# bow at only 8.57 GPI.  

Mark
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