Light arrows and deer?

[Pinecone]

I don't think that it's about the heaviest and most awesome arrows out there in terms of lethality, but I do think that responsible hunting requires a strong command of the current body of evidence, a complete familiarity and competence with the bow to be used, and a meticulously tuned projectile.  In addition, every bowhunter needs to know their limitations and the limitations of their chosen bow/arrow combination within the context of the game they are hunting and the conditions they are hunting in.
It is a complete over-simplification to try and reduce all of the complex variables of successfully taking game with a bow and arrow to discussing arrow weight in a vacuum.  Many factors exist that ultimately are a part of this equation.  For example, Chad's bow weight and draw length offer him advantages that I do not have at my draw length and weight.  Thus, I opt for a much heavier arrow and intentionally restrict my shot distance to under 20 yds to improve my odds of making a killing shot.
I guess that my point is that within reason,there is no absolute truth in terms of hunting weight arrows.  Instead, there are pieces of the truth that many people possess based upon their own unique perspective and circumstances...and it should all be assimilated within the context of balance.
This discussion should be less about whether or not Chad's arrow weight was sufficient to kill the deer he obviously killed, and more about congratulating Chad on his achievement and focusing on what works for any one of us given our unique set of characteristics as hunting archers.
When I am hunting, my personal preference is a moderately heavy arrow with a high FOC, and a strong (usually two-blade) BH...but that's what my years of field notes have proven works best for me with my draw weight and length.  I have even managed to break bone with my 47# bows with this set-up.  Recently, Ed Ashby's studies have validated my findings, but with much heavier bows, arrows, and critters.
So...let's not get too judgemental about this whole issue.  I like a minimum of 10 GPP of draw weight, others like 12 GPP, and Chad seems to like a bit less...maybe with a 29" draw I would to   .  Let's just remember that when comparing arrows from archer to archer, we are not comparing apples to apples...so all generalizations go completely out the window.

Claudia

[Pat B.]

All good "food for thought"..

Been a long, long time since I killed a deer with a rifle, but I did kill a few and a LOT of hogs that were in crops.. Killed them with everything from a .22 long rifle to a .338.  I guess more is better, but----a dead hog is dead.

I can't shoot an 80+ pound bow anymore.. I did years back and killed a lot of game. I've also killed a lot of game with 45-50 pound bows. I don't have any experience with arrows lighter than 500 grains though.. Looks like they worked fine in this instance.

Nice doe, CJ.... So tell us, did you intend to lure everyone into this discussion?  
Good job, grin...

[SteveB]

PineL - Thanks.

 

I do not believe that the motive for the light arrow is to compensate for any small errors in yardage estimation on shots 20yds and under more like 40yds and over

Believe it or not - its true for me. The fact that it would make a difference at 40 and over means nothing to me since my limit is several yards under that. If you will reread my post, you will see how it can make a difference at shorter ranges when your "instinct" sees the range wrong in the woods.

Steve

[vermonster13]

Well said Claudia. Though I doubt you'll stem the tide with common sense. Regardless who's common sense is applied. lol

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

********
 "The archer who gears his equipment to shoot the very best for him at unmarked yardage will invariably have a higher shot to kill ratio than a hunter who goes for the most arrow weight his bow can launch when it comes to deer hunting. The latter is so unforgiving of distance estimation that it's guaranteed to cause unexpected low and high misses."
********

Next year marks a half-century since my first big-game bow kill (a Texas Whitetail). I didn’t start keeping a record of every shot until 1982 but, excluding small game (which I’ve never kept records for), using the best penetrating arrow I could assemble - along with careful management after the hit - has allowed me to achieve a wound-loss rate well below 1% (0.66%, to be specific).

That wound-loss rate reflects a TOTAL of four hit but non-recovered large animals since starting to keep kill-records (out of over 600 HITS). None of those four non-recovered animals can be attributed to a lack of arrow performance. One was purloined by other hunters and three simply went where I and my shattered knees could no longer follow. Despite that I'm looking to improve on arrow penetration. Why? Because some of the bad-hit kills I made still had marginal penetration, requiring difficult follow-ups. Lady Luck smiled several times, but there were anxious moments; times when I would have given a lot for just a couple more inches of penetration. I've never lost an animal because my arrow penetrated too much - nor has anyone.

Lady, my favorite hunting longbow, racked up just over 300 consecutive kills, without hitting and losing a single big game animal. The average distance for all the shots was just under 16 yards. FAR over half were taken while stalking; not from blinds or tree stands. A flat-shooting arrow was required for none.

For those who think buffalo testing is not applicable to lighter big game such as deer, consider that the scapular ridge on a mature whitetail buck can easily be an inch thick. The head of the scapula on most any mature whitetail, does included, is often an inch or more in thickness - and the head of the humerus (the shoulder's ball joint) on virtually any shooting-size whitetail will be 1" to as much a 2-1/4" thick. Even a moderately steep angular impact on a deer's scapula or elk's rib can require that your broadhead penetrate an inch of bone before reaching anything vital.

Game animals are not 'targets'. Whenever we shoot one, our purpose is to kill; and kill as quickly and humanely as possible. A 'bad hit' on a target only results in a poor score. Every single 'bad hit' that results in a non-recovered animal has far greater implications; from both a practical and moral standpoint, as well as for our sport as a whole.

It is never wise to hunt with a setup which requires a near-perfect hit in order to be reliably lethal, yet many seem to consider such a setup as representing 'adequate'; which they generally qualify by adding, "as long as you do your part and put it in the right place." To be adequate your setup should be capable of killing cleanly and humanely on as many of the hits LIKELY to occur as possible; not just on near-perfect hits.

Consider that the VAST MAJORITY of today’s bowhunters ARE using fast, flat shooting arrows, yet every shred of data; and every study of bowhunting's wound-loss rate; indicates that that they are still making a lot of poorly placed hits, many of which ARE resulting in non-recovered animals (which is not necessarily to say that the animal doesn't often recover from such hits); and EVERY bowhunting wound-loss study indicates this. Saying that a faster arrow results in more killing hits simply does not correlate with the results of ANY researcher's data.

Ed

[vermonster13]

Ed, I also think that a lot of todays hunters don't devote nearly enough time to practicing that they should. Many think that 300+ fps and a set of pins ensures good hits. Traditional equipment takes devotion to putting in the time shooting be it targets, stumps, 3d or whatever gets you shooting. 1000 grain arrow isn't going to help someone who doesn't know their limitations or can't shoot worth a whit.

Of course I shoot telephone poles pretty much from my bows. LOL

[Rico]

You’re right SteveB  it probably doesn’t apply to everyone. How much trajectory difference is there with a plus or minus 100grains between 20 and 25 ?  Wouldn’t an arrow that hit too high be the same as one that hit too low?  Couldn't you error the other way in your yardage judgement thinking that it was further away than it actually was?
  The primary motive is for the longer yardages.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Dave, I coundn't agree more! I think that the time and devotion that Trad equipment requires TENDS to make us more mindful of these things. That's not to say that all guys shooting wheel-bows are not true bowhunters; or that everyone who shoots with a trad bow is a 'true bowhunter'. I've many wheel-shooting friends who are excellent bowhunters too. However, there's no doubt that an awful lot of those who 'casually hunt' with a bow (of any sort) are simply doing so because rifle season is closed!That's why I try to make a destinction between bowhunters and those who simply hunt with a bow because they cant be using anything else at the moment.

Ed

[Danny Rowan]

I am only gonna post one more thing. As I stated I shoot 800+ gr arrows out of 60/65# bows and I shoot in my practice round from 10 to 40 yards. I do not notice any drop. Now that may be cause my internal computer has seen the sight picture enough that it knows when it looks right for any given yardage. Saying that you need a light arrow to shoot a flat trajectory just does not compute. My arrows fly pretty flat out to 40 yards, I would not shoot at an animal that far away but I know if that was the only shot I had and it felt right I could put the arrow in the right place. Even at closer ranges things just sometimes do not go right no matter how hard we try, the animal takes a step just as we release and such. This happened to me and if I had been using a light arrow the results would not have been good. But with my heavy arrow and sharp 200 gr Ace i split the elbow joint of my bison and sliced through the heart and he was dead in 20 seconds. I was aiming at the crease just above and behind the elbow and he stepped forward with the off leg at release bringing the elbow of the near leg into play,25 yard shot. So I will keep using my heavy arrows and big broadheads. If ya want to use light arrows then that is your perogative.

Again Good Job Chad, glad it worked for you.

Danny

[SteveB]

Ed,

So whitetail hunting should be done at 16 yds and under with very heavy arrows or a hunter may not be a bowhunter - just simply someone who hunts with a bow?

I would like to feel that was not your concious implication, but it is real easy to read it that way.

[Richie Nell]

Ed,
To further make your point....I worked as a whitetail guide at a bowhunting only commercial operation for 2 years.  I met and hunted with hundreds of compound bow hunters from all across the world.  99% of those hunters shot very fast (300 fps) arrows that were very light, short and had 90-125 grain broadheads.  I spent many days and nights trailing deer.  Very few hunters made pass through shots.  The large majority of the shots resulted in the following:  
1. deer were found half dead by trail dogs a long way from the shot site, in which dogs completed the kill or 2.  dogs finally caught up with the barely wounded deer and killed the deer that would have never died or 3. the deer were never recovered due to nonfatal wounds.
Rarely were there good clean kills from the bows mentioned above.  The only hunters that routinely made the best kill shots were the guides that used fast compound bows with heavy arrows and 150+ grain broadheads.  I personally used a 73 lb. recurve with fairly heavy arrow/broadhead setup and never had trouble cleanly harvesting deer.
I wish I would have kept good data each day.  I am quite sure of two things that I learned from that experience.  If it weren't for amazing trail dogs we would have never found nonbleeding deer resulting in extremely low recovery rates, and lighter, faster bullets from a bow is not the way to ethically harvest a whitetail deer.
The game laws where I live do not accurately  reflect or encourage ethical hunting with a bow.

Richie

[SteveB]

Rico,
My primary range misjudgements in the woods are to see an animal as closer then it is. Therefore the speed I chose to shoot does not drop as much as one 30 fps slower when the animal/target is a few yards farther then I "see".

[vermonster13]

Well you shouldn't feel that way Steve. The good Doctor and I have been having a conversation about this in PM. If you want to know who he is talking about, go visit an archery shop or a Wal-Mart the week before season and watch how many new bows get sold and tags. Just like the week before rifle season when all those bore-sighted rifles leave the store and hit the woods unfired. I have a much longer effective range than I discuss on the boards as do a few others I know here, but I also usually practice at least 1-3 hours a day.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Sorry if it reads that way Steve. Note that the "just under sixteen yards" is "the average". However, I do try to keep all my shots at a self-imposed 22 yards or less - even though I can 'point directly' at the target up to almost 30 yards and still not have enough arrow drop to miss the kill zone on most of the smaller big game animals. I build in those 'extra yards' to allow for any error in range estimation on my part. Years of practice and hunting in a wide verity of terrain tells me that that's enough to allow for my worst range estimation.

There's a huge number of physiologic-optics studies (most by the military) showing that very, very few people can accurately estimate even 20 yards when 'viewing conditions' are not what they are THOROUGHLY accustomed to - even when given all the time they'd like, prior to taking their estimated guess.

If one is trying to shoot at the limit of their arrow's trajectory, there's just too much room for error. Rangefinders work, if that's what folks want to do, but they won't stop animals moving ... or intervening twigs from going unseen.

Ed

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Richie, thanks for that bit of information. I too wish you had kept careful records. I think the only way one can comprehend what you're saying is to have either hunted a great deal, or to have been a guide watching others hunt ... and I think the guide is the one who sees it most clearly. He gets to see a lot of different setup in use (and deal with the aftermath). It doesn't take long to see the difference.

Ed

[Pinelander]

Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
if you hit ribs on both sides or a leg bone, you'll be disapointed with the results.

I don't want to appear to be argumenative Biggie, but I have used a setup nearly identical to Chad's, and have broken rib going in and/or going out on more than several occasions. Obviously, I wasn't too disappointed with the results.... like a dead deer with holes on each side. I think Pinecone has pretty much talked the most sense in all of this rambling actually. Thank you Claudia.

[Papa Bull]

A deer is, indeed, a target.  Or to be more precise, the kill zone on a deer should be the bowhunter's target.  We can quibble about semantics till the end of time but it won't change the definition of "target", which by one of the primary definitions is:  "something aimed or fired at".  If deer aren't our target, we're not deer hunting.  

All clean kills require one of two things.  Pure dumb luck, or better....  a shot to the kill zone.  There is no "almost perfect" shot.  An "almost perfect" shot on a deer is a bad shot.  Anywhere in the heart-lung area is a perfect shot.  Almost perfect shots all too often result in really long blood trails that peter out to nothing and some may believe heavy arrows will fix that, but I've done a fair bit of hunting myself and I don't buy it.  If you hit the kill zone, you're in.  If you don't....  you better hope lady luck is going to give you a big peck on the cheek.  

Different strokes for different folks.  If someone wants to shoot deer with fishing arrows at 10 yards, that's fine with me.  I'll stick to my 400 grain arrows going 195 fps.  As I hear so often "works for me".  And it works for me extremely well.  In fact it works for a lot of people extremely well.  Everyone has to make their own choices.  I go for "light" but flat shooting and have yet to lose any animal I've ever shot due to "lack of penetration", but then again.... I'm a whitetail hunter, my setup is for whitetails and it's matched well for whitetails.  I wouldn't shoot a buffalo with a .270 and I wouldn't shoot a deer with a big bore double rifle.  I take the same approach to bowhunting.

[cjones]

Thanks everyone for the congrats. Looks like i went and kicked the hornets nest. Btw, What will this set up do when it hits shoulder bone and ribs? It does this and i have witneses!  :D  
 

[vermonster13]

[Landshark160]

Dr. Ashby, I have to say that is the most impressive recovery ratio I have ever seen.  You must be an outstanding tracker.  Have you had any clean misses?