Light arrows and deer?

[Papa Bull]

Originally posted by Rico:
You’re right SteveB  it probably doesn’t apply to everyone. How much trajectory difference is there with a plus or minus 100grains between 20 and 25 ?  Wouldn’t an arrow that hit too high be the same as one that hit too low?  Couldn't you error the other way in your yardage judgement thinking that it was further away than it actually was?
  The primary motive is for the longer yardages.

A flatter trajectory will reduce BOTH high and low misses.  Guess it too short or too long and both will be closer to your mark with a higher velocity arrow.  And it does make a difference at "short" yardage under 25 yards.  That's one of the things 3D will teach you that you aren't going to learn any other way.  Lots of those "damn, missed right over" or "damn, missed right under" have a lot more to do with mis-guessing yardage than it does looking at a deer's feet or looking at the air over his back.  

You can think it's b.s., but thinking that is going to cost you.  Remember that the next time you miss high or low.

[Pat B.]

Once again, Congrats on the nice buck.. Is that where the arrow exited or entered ?

Got a good season going there.

[cjones]

Pat, That is the buck i killed last season. That is the entrance wound and the arrow exited between the front legs right where the ribs all come together.

[DesertDude]

Hello, still looking for an answer to my question on page 3.

Thank You   Mark

[vermonster13]

I thought it was rhetorical Mark.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Chris, I'm a fair tracker. It's getting tougher as I get older though. I need my 'tracking glasses' on nowadays. And, yes, I've had misses; but not so many as I did many years ago. I FINALLY learned to 'hunt close' and try only the high percentage shots; and FINALLY worked out what type of arrow setup it took to turn the highest number of hits into kills. I also learned a lot about how to manage follow-ups after the shot; and that's a HUGE factor in animal recovery.

In years past, I did a goodly amount of terminal ballistic field studies for Barnes Bullets, and was on their Technical Advisory Board. On poorly placed hits, a TRULY SHARP broadhead is far more lethal than a bullet - if the arrow penetrates - and they give a higher recovery rate too!

Ed

[DesertDude]

Not at all Dave, If we are to use the GPI as a standard, what is considered a heavy arrow?

Thank You,   Mark

[vermonster13]

I think you'll get as many answers to that as you will to a what is the best bow/broadhead/etc thread.

I would use GP# instead of GPI though personally. I am more along the thoughts I thought you were presenting on page 3. 9-11 GP# is a moderate weight arrow by the way most go on here it appears. So I would say anything over 11 GP# is entering the heavy side and less the lighter side.

I like to shoot arrows that fly well from my bow at a speed that clocks well with my brain shooting and will do what I need on the size animals I'm after at the time.

Clear as mud ain't it?

[cjones]

Mark, Are you asking about GPI (grains per inch) or GPP(grains per pound)? If it is gpp, i consider 10gpp to be heavy and 6 gpp to be light!

[DesertDude]

Yes GP#  sorry...  I have always tried to get as close to 10 GP# as a starting point. Right now at 520gr 56# at my draw (9.2) Perfect flight...Thanks for your response......Mark

[Arrow4Christ]

Chad,
It's pics like that buck, as well as others with lighter arrows going straight through elk ribs, Ron LaClair's pic of the shoulderblade hit, and many others that tell me there is something more to it.
IMO, it has much more to do with #1 Arrow Flight and #2 Broadhead design. I hope that with more experience I can confirm this hypothesis.
Craig

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Mark, I don't use grains/pound of bow force as a "standard". To me, it's nothing more than a reference point; just like static-spine is; or the way we archers measure arrow FOC. The 10 grains/pound guideline dates all the way back to the time when almost all bows were self-wood. Bow efficiency has changed a lot.

As you increase arrow mass, a bow's efficiency continues to increase. However, at a certain point of arrow mass, though bow efficiency is still going up, the RATE AT WHICH IT IS INCREASING shows a marked decline. Using a chronograph lets you find this point for your bow; with you doing the shooting. That takes in everything, including how good your release is.

In the 'old days' I think folks just came up with the 10 gr/lb. rule of thumb simply because they could notice the difference in how arrows shot off the typical bows used when they reached that 'drop-off' point. They merely used the heaviest arrow they could until they noticed an ABRUPT change in arrow flight at long range.  ("shooting the wand" was done at about 120 yards!) Over the years it's likely that they just put two and two together; noting that, for most bows they encountered, the relationship between the two was a 10 to 1 ratio.

Interestingly, for virtually every self-wood bow I've tried this with, the chronograph indicates that this 'drop-point' is right around 10 grains of arrow mass per pound of draw force. On the other hand, with some of the high-performance bows, such as Cher's ACS-CX, it just over 15 grains per pound of draw-force.

Troy Breeding did some similar testing with his ACS-CX (at his much longer draw length than Cher's 26") and came up with well over 16 grains of arrow mass per pound of draw-force before there was any decline in the rate of increase in efficiency. That difference is likely the difference between the quality of each individual’s release.

Today, there's not a clear-cut rule for what constitutes a 'heavy arrow'. The old 'rule of thumb' isn't as applicable as it once was, but such 'common knowledge' dies harder than a toad in mud.

Most modern trad bows will cast an arrow with a mass or 12 to 15 grains per pound of bow-force (and often, even more) with a trajectory that would have been considered increadibly flat-shooting just sixty or seventy years ago - for any arrow.

Don't know if that answers your question, but it's the best I can offer you. I'm sure O. L. could be a lot more precise!

Ed

[DesertDude]

Thank you, The 10 GP# is what was passed down to me when I first started 20+ years ago.

Mark

[cjones]

Norb, I was killing myself trying to get behind the deer and situated before the self timer went off!

Joe, Luckily i had another knife to use. Leroy made one for me as a gift back in june and i broke it in on this doe.

Mickey, I killed this one behind the house. I do have good news as the people who were buying my grandparents' property had some trouble and we should have it for the rest of the season!

[Papa Bull]

Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
In the 'old days' I think folks just came up with the 10 gr/lb. rule of thumb simply because they could notice the difference in how arrows shot off the typical bows used when they reached that 'drop-off' point. They merely used the heaviest arrow they could until they noticed an ABRUPT change in arrow flight at long range.

Ed, the popularity of Port Orford cedar as the de facto standard of arrow wood indicates to me that archers actually looked for the lightest wood hunting arrows they could shoot, rather than the heaviest.   All the really tough hardwood shafts are much, much heavier but weren't popular shaft materials until recent years when people became obsessed with "heavy arrows".  

Increasing arrow weight will likely increase a bow's efficiency in single digit percentages.  How important is it to do that?  I'd say it depends on how minimal the bow setup is.  For cape buffalo, I think it's more important than it is for whitetails.  Whitetails are regularly killed by bows in the 40 pound range.  50 pounds is a 20 percent increase and 60 pounds is a full 40 percent increase.  Shooting 8 grains per pound instead of 12 or 15 or whatever might reduce the bow's efficieny by 5 or 6 percent, but that HARDLY makes it marginal.  It's still serious overkill.  And if the goal is to maintain more than enough penetration power with a flatter, more forgiving trajectory, the guy shooting a 50 pound bow with 8 grains per pound achieved that.  

We are about the same size as a deer and I can't imagine anyone thinking they'd fare any differently if they got shot with a 400 grain broadhead tipped arrow instead of an 800 grain broadhead tipped arrow.  

As someone already mentioned.  The 400 grain arrow that is 10 grains per pound out of a legal 40 pound bow is only that much more deadly coming out of a 50 or 55 pound bow that much faster.

[Bonebuster]

Nice shooting Chad. Now you can relax and concentrate on those bruisers you have running amuck in your area.

[sswv]

okay, is this ENOUGH for whitetail?

my longbow is 46#s. I shoot a 450 grain carbon arrow at an 'average' of 182fps.

my recurve is also 46#s. I shoot the same 450 grain carbon arrow at an 'average' of 188fps from it.

I use very sharp multi-blade cut on contact heads (my arrows fly great from both bows) and I keep my shots within 20 yards. I also practice about everyday. This will be my 3rd season with traditional gear. Filled all my tags the past two seasons plus, I hunted with wheels 30 or so years prior to switching with MANY, MANY kills so I'm no beginner. In my mind I already know the answer but am VERY curious what the experts think about my set-up.

thanks in advance  

[vermonster13]

Funny thing is Danny, you and Chad are producing very close KE with your set-ups. You have plenty as we both know you already know. For whitetails that is.    :p

[Ray Hammond]

Papa Bull, your supposition regarding cedar shafts is actually inaccurate. Port Orford USED to be a high quality arrow wood that was heavier on average than it is now.

It is one of the reasons I got out of the arrow business...when I got acme premiums in big lots years and years ago they were much heavier than today's cedars.

POC is not cut down now like it was in the first half of the last century (man that makes me feel old to say that)and hence wood quality is not what it was.

Fire killed trees, downed limbs, essentially picked up wood is all that gets used now if my sources are right...even as short a time ago as the mid eighties cedar was much more readily available in heavier shafting than it is today.

Talk to anyone of the ol'timers like Kelly for example and he will tell you the same thing.

[Papa Bull]

Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
Papa Bull, your supposition regarding cedar shafts is actually inaccurate. Port Orford USED to be a high quality arrow wood that was heavier on average than it is now.

It is one of the reasons I got out of the arrow business...when I got acme premiums in big lots years and years ago they were much heavier than today's cedars.

POC is not cut down now like it was in the first half of the last century (man that makes me feel old to say that)and hence wood quality is not what it was.

Fire killed trees, downed limbs, essentially picked up wood is all that gets used now if my sources are right...even as short a time ago as the mid eighties cedar was much more readily available in heavier shafting than it is today.

Talk to anyone of the ol'timers like Kelly for example and he will tell you the same thing.

Ray, my supposition is that cedar is lighter than ash, maple, dogwood and even chundoo and that it's always been less dense than these other favored "heavy wood" arrows, by it's very nature.  I think we'd be hard pressed to argue that in the good ol' days POC was the premium "heavy shaft" material.  It was just a premium shaft material and has always been one of, if not THE lightest of all the wood shafts.

Granted, I wasn't making cedar arrows 50 years ago, but I was making them 25 years ago and they were still the lightest wood shafts of any type at that time.

In fact, it's primary advantage was "light to moderate" weight, whereas everything else, including yellow cedar is "moderate to heavy" or just plain "heavy".  POC is the easiest to break (least durable) of all the arrow woods.  Maple is much tougher.  So is Ash.  So is yellow cedar.  And yet, POC was the de facto standard.  It had "good cast" and that was a result of it's light to moderate weight and despite the advantages of the other woods in terms of toughness, straightness and durability, the lighter POC was "the" arrow wood.