Advantages of reverse/forward handle

[Zradix]

Kirk...

No arguments here with what you're sayin Kirk.

A grip that fits your individual hand and placement is a big part of the "Holy Grail" equation for sure.

So much of our perception of a bow is greater (or less than) than the some of it's parts anyway.

With good form, you can hedge a build to make the bow quicker but maybe be a tad more finicky...or something along that line.

What I like to see is guys like Kirk who don't want to settle for a darn thing scheming away....lol

[Ron LaClair]

 Years ago in phone conversation with Ron La Clair, this will jog your memory till it hurts Ron, we were talking about the Robertson and Rocky Miller R/D bows. I predicted that longbows could go the way of hunting recurves. More deflex in the handle and more of a working limb, until they were very short and unlike anything we have ever seen before. Ron said not necessarily, but it was interesting. Now all of these years later and there they are  

Lawrence, I don't recall the conversation but it probably was around the time when bow designs were starting to change.

The Hill style longbow was what everyone was shooting back in the early 1980's and then Robertson brought back the deflex/reflex design which was popular in the 50's. Dicks bows were still pretty long, I think 66 and 68" lengths. Rockey Miller made a very good D/R bow in about a 64" length. The first flatbow I saw was one that Jay Massey brought to the GLLI the 2nd year he came there. He had stopped off on his way from Alaska and spent a few days at Dick Robertson's. While there he used Dicks bow form and made himself a 64" R/D wide limb flatbow.

I shot the bow at the GLLI and liked it. I ask Dick if he would make one for me. Dick said, " No, why would anyone want a bow like that". Long story short after some finagling Dick said he'd make it. The bow was the first "Buffalo Bow" that Dick made, 64" 78#@ 28". Later Great Northern came out with their version of a flat bow but 64" was the shortest any of them were. Neither Robertson or great Northern bows were forward handled bows.

When the Shrew bow came out with it's forward handle and short 52" length it was advertized as "The worlds shortest longbow"

Not long after that Harry Elburg started making his short longbows with forward handle. The rest as they say is history.    

[ron w]

Am I wrong......Reverse handle and Forward handle are to my mind 2 totally different things. Or maybe I'm not thinking about what a reverse handle longbow is.

[Zradix]

I've seen them used interchangeably when speaking of hill style.

...to me they are very different terms though...
In my mind...mainly a reverse handle is for Hill bows only...you know the ones that look like they're strung backwards.

Forward handles are for recurves or hybrids...in my mind.

[ron w]

I tend to agree Zradix........

[Ray Lyon]

Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
 

 Years ago in phone conversation with Ron La Clair, this will jog your memory till it hurts Ron, we were talking about the Robertson and Rocky Miller R/D bows. I predicted that longbows could go the way of hunting recurves. More deflex in the handle and more of a working limb, until they were very short and unlike anything we have ever seen before. Ron said not necessarily, but it was interesting. Now all of these years later and there they are  

Lawrence, I don't recall the conversation but it probably was around the time when bow designs were starting to change.

The Hill style longbow was what everyone was shooting back in the early 1980's and then Robertson brought back the deflex/reflex design which was popular in the 50's. Dicks bows were still pretty long, I think 66 and 68" lengths. Rockey Miller made a very good D/R bow in about a 64" length. The first flatbow I saw was one that Jay Massey brought to the GLLI the 2nd year he came there. He had stopped off on his way from Alaska and spent a few days at Dick Robertson's. While there he used Dicks bow form and made himself a 64" R/D wide limb flatbow.

I shot the bow at the GLLI and liked it. I ask Dick if he would make one for me. Dick said, " No, why would anyone want a bow like that". Long story short after some finagling Dick said he'd make it. The bow was the first "Buffalo Bow" that Dick made, 64" 78#@ 28". Later Great Northern came out with their version of a flat bow but 64" was the shortest any of them were. Neither Robertson or great Northern bows were forward handled bows.

When the Shrew bow came out with it's forward handle and short 52" length it was advertized as "The worlds shortest longbow"

Not long after that Harry Elburg started making his short longbows with forward handle. The rest as they say is history.      [/b]

That's about the time I first met Ron and I bought a couple of Dick Robertson Bow's from Ron when he was a stocking dealer for Dick.  I also remember buying a used 'Duoflex' built by Tim Meig's for my roommate at that time, he was a lefty and the duoflex was a lefty and was 66" long, but had the heavy reflex/deflex and reverse pistol grip handle with longbow limbs. I was a longer bow fanatic at that time, so even though I was going to camp with Ron and the gang in the mid nineties when those first Shrews and Super Shrews came out (I was shooting a 64" JD Berry Yaweh then), I finally bought my first Super Shrew-a Samurai-back in 1999 and have shot them ever since (along with some vintage Bears of late). I like that I can pick up my Super Shrew and it just points naturally for me. Ron's description about the grip on his website is spot on. I pick up those Shrews and they just 'fit'.  I did shoot a reverse handle longbow at camp (Roger Norris had a Northern Mist Whisper) that I thought was a very nice shooting/pointing bow.

I don't know the math or science about them, but I do like the forward handle. They just fit me and they give me confidence. There's probably more importance to the confidence factor of instinctive shooting and the accompanying 'high score' and shootability when you have that confidence; than the physics/math. Just my two cents.

[Green]

I don't know the math or science about them, but I do like the forward handle. They just fit me and they give me confidence. There's probably more importance to the confidence factor of instinctive shooting and the accompanying 'high score' and shootability when you have that confidence; than the physics/math. Just my two cents. [/QB]

^^^This^^^

[Hatrick]

Zradix, your explanation of reverse riser (as in an ASL bow) and forward riser (as in a recurve or hybrid) are the same as mine.

I started making some reverse riser ASL's last year and really liked the way they shot. I was shooting withy a pretty well known bowyer and we were discussing the bow and I described it as a "forward" riser. He corrected me using the same explanation as you did above. Well, it made sense to me so know I call my ASL a reverse riser.

So ron w, that makes at least 3 of us.

[ron w]

       

[duncan idaho]

Huh ????  

Yes, people are arguing over bow design here … because it is a forum about bowhunting which includes talking about pros and cons about bow designs.

Really?
          You should read the comments from the gentlemen above, about Kirk. The point that you missed was this: this a bowhunting forum,where most people go to escape the crap that goes on in the real world. I been a member since 2005, I know what this website is for.

[Sixby]

You know when we are standing around the campfire after a great day and talking people say all kinds of things and no one gets offended. I would love to be able to have an adult conversation like that online. Perhaps we should pretend that we all love the same things and have a lot in common and take a little ribbing without getting into a wrestling match. We could start with taking what is being said without putting negative constructions on it. This is really some light stuff when we put it in comparison with what Duncan and other members of our armed forces are seeing and with what is going on in the world. My suggestion is to keep things in perspective and learn from what is said by all and if we disagree do it respectfully.

God bless you all, Steve

[Pheonixarcher]

Well said Steve!!! I couldn't agree more. Thank you for your attempts at keeping the peace. The fellowship and respect that our members usually exhibit is one of the biggest reasons that I frequent and contribute to this site. I'd hate to see that change.

Back to the thread topic, I don't believe that there is any exceptional benefit or draw back to a forward riser hybrid or recurve. It's my belief that these bows can be optimized for best performance and shooting characteristics just as well as a rearward riser. I think this one comes down to design, and personal preference.

I can't really comment much on Hill style longbows, as I have very little experience with them. But the consensus seems to be that a reverse handle is more pleasant to shoot. Having just tested the new Liberty English longbow with VERY mild deflex/reflex (almost straight limbs), and a riser sandwiched in the middle of the lams, I'd have to agree.

Please, let's keep this civil! Happy Holidays everyone.

[DaveT1963]

Let's just say when James Berry speaks I tend to listen - guy has been building quility bows for a very long time...... well at least I listen when he talks bows anyways  

[Zradix]

Originally posted by Kirkll:
.....I just have a low tolerance for
bogus statements being made regarding bow design implying that higher performance bows are more difficult to shoot... It simply isn't true......

I agree with Kirk here.

...in my mind, a VERY large part of the equation of a "High performance bow" is that bow being easy to shoot.

Or at least I can say I have no want for a fast shooting bow that is a finicky s.o.g to shoot.
....I'd like all the help I can get...lol

[RC]

Forgiving over speed anyday. I`m not good enough to shoot short or fast bows but I can make stuff bleed with a slow forgiving one. forward handle bows seem to help but it is hard to beat a ASL or slight r/d longbow 64" and up for my 27" draw. I can see an advantage in a reverse handle bow and would love a Morning Star. RC

[DaveT1963]

I have shot my share of longbows and my new Tiapan from James is the best shooting one I have held.  Yes it is a reverse handle bow and it shoots like a dream.  But then again every bow James has built me is a shooter, this one just seems to be at the top of that pile.

I can only share the results with equipment I have, I only referred to me and my bows.  There were no bogus claims or statements, simply my personal results with my bows.  I personally do not know how other people's bows shoot for them, and could not possibly predict their results.  I never inferred how all high performance bows shoot, I do need to use tab with my recurve, I do get up and right flyers on occasion when I use a glove.  I think Kirk makes it very plain that he does not like Hill style bows, and refers to poor bow designs frequently concerning them.  If all he wanted to do is use this thread to promote his product, he could have easily done it without his insults and ridicule of others personal observations and work.

[Green]

Well said Pavan.

the original post referred to forward and reverse, that could be forward as in Black Widow recurves or reverse as in longbows. Two completely different things. I have never seen a company so consistently produce top quality bows as Black Widow. I have checked out dozens of them, remarkably consistent work.  Even though I prefer Hill style bows, there is more variance in them. I have seen cases where shooters have a terrible problem with the straight grips. Hill once demonstrated how he could influence the tiller of the bow by pushing and grip and offsetting his draw fingers. However, it is also possible to firmly hold that straight grip without influencing the bow.  It is possible to hold a reverse longbow with less pressure and because the bow limbs are not off set by the grip it will not swim or shift as much left and right in the palm. sometimes if a longbow bends too much too close to the fade outs it is also possible that the limbs can cause a longbow to be causing left and right problems, because the length of the limb can be put off line.  I have had a bow that had this problem and retillered when I saw that a disproportionate amount of the bend was coming right off the riser. That did wonders for that bow in all aspects.  Take downs of various designs use angled limb mounts to stabilize things whether they are forward or offset like a Bear takedown, stability is built into the mounting angles of the limbs, which essentially gives them a deflexed attitude. As much as I like shooting my Grooves, it really does not like what I do at times when shooting with a glove. There is something in my release that effects that bow, I had the same thing happen with my target Black Widow.  Perhaps that is why all Olympic shooters use tabs that I have seen, some bows must not tolerate the heavy handed things that go on with some shooters with thick shooting gloves.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

sometimes if a longbow bends too much too close to the fade outs it is also possible that the limbs can cause a longbow to be causing left and right problems, because the length of the limb can be put off line.

So you are telling folks here that a bows tiller effects lateral torque? Where may i ask did you come up with this theory?

     

Take downs of various designs use angled limb mounts to stabilize things whether they are forward or offset like a Bear takedown, stability is built into the mounting angles of the limbs, which essentially gives them a deflexed attitude.  

Now you are telling us the angled limb mounts stabilize things, and..... stability is built into the mounting angles of the limbs....

Which one comes first, the chicken or the egg?

AND.... "this gives the bow a deflex attitude....."


It's statements like these that would give any bowyer a "Deflex attitude"....

Brutha... i think you better quit while you are ahead.... you're going in hot dumping fuel here...

For future reference,  The limb geometry, forward taper rate, and width profile, are all factors in dictating the correct limb pad angle to obtain the best overall vertical & torsional limb stability.