Backcountry Tipi buying help

[tukudu]

Casey I running with the 8 man cordura with short sides  on the bottom, Has two doors for upper and lower vent zip flexibility , with stove jack, for Brian's stove.Went with sides to increase usable space under conditions of  bomb proof base camp without a lot of weight. Will have inner loops sewn in the upper section to run a clothes dry out line.  Getting stoked as we speak.

[Aggieland]

Explain the Short sides on the bottom & sides to increase useable space.. Is that the tie outs that sorta pull out the outer edges of the tipi? Does it have a sod skirt of any type?  Sounds like its going to be tuff as nails!

[WLAF]

Originally posted by Aggieland:
Brian, I'm wondering what demensions are on your larger size tipi's like a 10,12, 16 man sizes? Just looking at pics and they appear shorter than some of the other brands. The Dyneema and condura looks like the best materials for durability and still somewhat afordable.

It was a joy speaking with you Tom... plan on seeing you in June!

the center height can be made custom anywhere from 5 ft. 6 inch up to 9 ft. if desired. i prefer 7 ft. for the best standing room/wind resistance combination. The side walls are sewn to the bottom edge of the tipi. i can sew sidewalls on any existing tipi even from other makers...
sidewalls range from 12 inch up to 36, customer choice. my tents usually have a 15 inch sidewall.

[WLAF]

 

[WLAF]

a little background for you guys,
i started work for my uncle as a pipe welder when i was 23 in oklahoma and work on large road boring jobs for him for a few years and then got my union ironworkers card and worked high rise steel for 4 yrs. in utah and a few other states until 2000 when i decided to drag up and pursue my favorite thing in life, the outdoors, namely archery elk hunting. i bought some gear and started chasing bulls in sept. and my first real year hunting in 2001, put a nice 6x7 on the ground from 5 yds. i was hooked. as i increased in understanding the animals behavior, i began shed antler hunting to help pay the bills and stay in shape. i had a resting heart rate of about 40 bpm and could literally cover 12 miles in mtn. country in 1 day. my spike outs were numerous and so i started understanding what gear i needed and wanted and that it was very expensive to get (if possible) exactly what i thought was ideal.
being dedicated to construction for so many yrs. i thought to understand the ways the gear i had was put together. i had an old singer machine from my mother that i began tinkering with and it slowly evolved into the 7 machine i have running today. from light duty to heavy duty leather and tack machines that push 300 size thread and bigger.
i have a good friend who is a saddle maker and we throw ideas around every day and that is how the new stuff comes to reality. i sit at a dry erase board and brainstorm and meditate on how things can be improved or just redesigned period. i am a one man think tank and i am not happy unless i can see a finished prototype. so, that is why my passion for this is bordering on obsession. i love what i do and i love watching the stuff i create get hammered to the breaking point. it just makes it all the more reliable the next time around when i fix the problems that come up. i am confident in my abilities to make a superior product to anything out there. and i redesign failures until they are nearly failproof if not.

[Aggieland]

The bad thing is everyone that is serious into packs, tents, etc. Knows that Cuben fiber "at the moment" is the wave of the future for ultralight bombproof gear. The problem is the dang stuff is simply to expensive for most folks. I can't justify buying a lesser material for something I plan to use for years knowing that in 6 months or a year later cuben prices could drop down to much more afordable levels.    That may never happen but it still makes it hard to spend a lot of hard earned money on something that could possibly be phased out in a few years.

[Aggieland]

Found this on Google Images. Not sure who owns it but if it is made of Cuben, it's pretty sweet!   http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/s554af52163978ba3/img/i605e875a032cc7ab/1330529527/orig/image.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthre ad.php?t%3D111852&h=372&w=1023&tbnid=5rmjx3ohBsU4mM:&zoom=1&docid=qnG35ziHVQNxEM&ei=zCrEVKzoOtSsyAT5yILYAg&tbm=isch&ved=0CBwQMygAMAA

[Kevin Dill]

Aggieland,

I hear you on your interest in Cuben fabric. I absolutely know I would have felt the same way somewhere in my past. I would have wanted only the latest and greatest...and I was reputed to have talked myself into a few things I didn't need or that didn't pan out as I imagined. That's how people learn about stuff, and not a darned thing wrong with it. Cuben just might be the ultimate fabric everyone heads toward, but we won't know until several years have passed. As it stands now, Cuben doesn't offer enough advantages to offset the current high price for a clear majority of manufacturers and buyers. Some...yes. I plan to purchase a few 'intermediate' items made from Cuben fabric, like compression bags and gear storage. I want to try it out but not invest a large amount on a big tipi. Keep in mind there is plenty of history where new chemicals, compounds, fabrics etc were created, marketed and used...then fizzled. They usually don't fizzle because of the product, but more often due to cost, slow production, low demand and overall lack of market development. I'm guessing the best hope for Cuben will be for a larger company to produce it with greater efficiency...and it might not be made on this continent either when that happens.

I would and do have no worries about Sil-nylon or other worthy and hard-used fabrics going obsolete. These are the backbone of the lightweight-shelter industry. You can be sure that serious-gear companies like KUIU, Stone Glacier, Kifaru, SO, Hilleberg, Montbell, and dozens more have their eyes on the future. I know many guys who have used sil-nylon shelters for years with absolutely no issues or regrets. I think I once heard where carbon foam would revolutionize stickbow limbs and render wood cores obsolete. Even if there was a performance advantage, it didn't happen.

Whatever shelter you end up buying, use it hard and get out there!

[Steve Chappell]

Here we are in 2015 and despite some compelling data and testimonials that there are better tipi fabrics and makers there are some who are not open to even consider alternative to the status quo. Yes, they are proven and that is certainly our option!  I personally felt there has to be something better out there then the two options I though for a very long timer were my only tipi options…so I went looking. For those of you open to alternative to the stats quo, there are some very good options out there.

If I am going to invest in something, and I view a tipi as an investment, I am going to go with what I feel is the very best value for the money...even if that means paying double or triple. People do  it all the time in other areas of their buying life…cars, clothes, etc.  I am one that does not like looking back wishing I had gone with what my heart and mind was telling me I should have gotten (based on a lot of research) because I wanted to save some money or went with the flow.  I have done it in the past and regretted it.  If what I feel is the best and what I have concluded is what I really want, if I cannot afford…I now save to get what I really want when I can afford it.  

What I find interesting is people will pay more for a Kifaru over a Seek Outside stating it is worth the extra money for as best I can conclude is a “peace of Mind” factor.  In the case of a base 8 man that is $325  or 38% more for a base Kifaru over SO tipi…and keep in mind the SO has a lot of extras in their base model.  If you could get those extras on an SO on a Kifaru, I think it is fair to say that $325 or 38% would go up even more.  

Now, let me put this on the table. For those willing to pay in the area of 100% more than a Kifaru base 8 man tipi they can basically get what might currently be the ultimate fabric, Cuban, which the data indicates is far superior to Silnylon in strength and weight. So for in the area of 100% more one can get an ultra strong and ultra light tipi. To say the fabric is not proven is a misrepresentation, which I have found this tipi world is fraught with.  

For those that do not want to pay Cuban prices, there is another fabric option I feel based on my research is also superior to Silnylon and that is Dyneema.  It costs and wights a little more than Silnylon but it’s qualities are incredible.  If I was not going with Cuban, I would be going Dyneema.

After a seriously lot of reasearch I am having Brian at Wyoming Lost and Found build me an 8 man tipi out of Cuban with everything I want.  I will be taking it to Alaska in September on a Moose and Brown Bear float hunt to put it to the test. I feel very comfortable taking it because Cuban is a proven tipi and tent material  and WL&F is a proven well respected tipi maker.  For those who may say he is not a proven tipi maker, that too would be a misrepresentation.  


The bottom line for those in the tipi market, you need to know there are options in fabrics and makers that offer you a great value.  Reading forums like this is a great foundation for gathering information but don't just take what you read on this forum or what you hear from the makers...check things out yourself, validate what you hear or read as best you can.  

Once you start talking to those that make these tipis you will start putting the pieces together and be able to tell who is trying to blur things and who is straight.  Also, when it comes the the fabrics, there is a lot of info out there from what I would call small businesses that are using them.  There are a lot of great source of information out there that some in this industry I have concluded do not want you to know about!!!

Once you have done your research, then go with what your heart and mind tells you is best for you.

[Kevin Dill]

Steve, I sincerely hope you use that new tipi with great success. The main thing I've always advocated is to do the research and make your own conclusions. Different people will reach different conclusions...not necessarily right or wrong ones...and hopefully find the perfect thing for their uses. In the end, a discussion like this is great for passing around ideas and philosophies. Let us know how you like the Cuben fabric...congrats!

[Steve Chappell]

Kevin

You have been a big inspiration for me and I am sure countless others.  You are ,in part, why I have stayed at it to make an Alaska bow hunt dream a reality.  I value and respect your experience and knowledge on all things…including tipis!  I mean zero disrespect to you or other who are committed to Kifaru or have differing opinions!  

What I struggle with is this mentality I have come across out there with some that if it is not Kifaru it is not worthy….whether it be different ways of construction, materials or makers.  You are a very respectful man and your support for Kifaru is presented in a respectful manner…which people are well served to know!  However, not all are.  This mentality I speak of is, IMHO, perpetuated by the company in its writing and words and by many who use their stuff. It is one thing to promote what it is that makes a product better then the competitor with facts and another to disparage competition with as best I have been able to uncover as faults information to casue confusion and drive business their way.

We are all better served by a healthy market place with healthy competition, not just one or two players that call the shots.  Competition drives innovations, fair pricing and ultimately better products.  Stifling this process is unhealthy and that is what I sometimes saw and heard as I did my research.  
 
All I am promoting, as I believe you are too, is people do their homework and not be persuaded to just go with the flow or believe everything they are told. And, I agree, in the end we all need to do what is right for us.

[Aggieland]

Can't wait to see that Cuben Tipi.. Hope Brian will post pics on here as he moves along on the build!!!!!

[Steve Chappell]

I learned Brian from Wyoming Lost and Found was removed from TradGang. Not sure why but guess it is due to him promoting his products on this thread and not being a sponsor.  He told me he is submitting to become a sponsor.  Hopefully he will be back soon.

[Steve B.]

I found this thread one of the more bizzare discussions that I've seen in awhile.  I was going to wade back in at one point when I thought there was still some misconceptions or confusion but backed out when it seemed that Brian took over the thread and Steve suddenly disappeared.
It started out odd that Steve's first post he mentioned Kifaru and SO but acted like he didn't know of any others.  After a few answers suddenly he's talking about wyomingxxx, on the same day.
Then all this philosophical discussion about how to justify the cost, how Kifaru has a cult following, how Patrick bashed SO, and then how the extra $ must be because it gives people peace of mind/factor.
Just all kinds of different angles on the whole thing and I didn't know if it was a rant or confusion on Steve's part or what.  

Then when Brian came in full bore with all kinds of pics and posts I felt something bigger was going on.  How did Brian know about this thread so soon?  Anyway, I stayed out.

But since I was kind of lumped in with the cultists or paranoid, simply because I bought Kifaru, I aquiested and went to Brian's website and studied all the new tipi's.  I happen to be in the market for a 12 or 16 man so I was interested.
I didn't see anything I liked.  The writing is hard to read because of the background color, there is all this talk about extensive testing but there is very little data about tipis weights and sizes.  You have to go to the gallery to see any real pics and then you don't always know what you are seeing, specifically, when You are looking at a tipi (size, material, etc.).
I'd never use a setup where you have all these guy outs that would either take up a huge amount of space or that you would trip on for sure especially at night.
I saw prices on the 10-man, which might fill my needs, but I didn't see any  big difference from other similar tipis.

I would never buy one of his tipis at this point.  I bought the kifaru when the kifaru was the ONLY tipi around at the time, not because I'm a cultist, and so by default I proved it to be something that works for me.  I'll stick with them in the future too.

[Steve Chappell]

Steve B
I think it is good and healthy for all to be involved who will constructively and professionally participate.  Glad you are back!

Through this thread, from the moment I posted it, I was on a journey for knowledge about tipis to use in eventually buying one for myself.  I learned a lot and have been able to narrow in on what I want.  

Based on PMs I have gotten and posts on this thread, there are a lot of people who want to know more about tipis and what their options are.

When I went into this, I thought I had only 2 options to buy a tipi from…but in reality there are a lot of tipi makers to choose from out there.  

I have shared what I have learned along the way and frankly some of what I have learned and shared has been disappointing to me.  Some of what I shared may have offended; which I can assure you was not my intent.  Maybe I offended you; for which I offer an apology.

There is no conspiracy!
 
I am not promoting one maker over another just strongly promoting to all those in the market for a tipi to do their own homework with an open mind and don’t just go by what you read and hear from people like me.  I found Wyoming Lost And Found through this processes and after extensively checking them out, they are able to give me the tipi I want.
 
Personally, I think it is good for people like Brain at WL&F to participate in forums like this and share their knowledge and differentiate themselves from others in the tipi world…as long as it is done constructively and professionally.

[Kevin Dill]

Update: Just received an email today indicating my Sawtooth is completed and has shipped. Of course I'll need a 6# hammer to drive the pegs into frozen Ohio turf...sigh. Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting it in here and set up (warmer day) so I can evaluate it and seal the seams.

Hey Steve Chappell: Did you order that Cuben tipi from WLAF?

Anyone else going 'bottomless' this year?    

[amicus]

Kevin, I really hope you post some pics.

Gilbert

[Montanawidower]

Steve B,

I take some of the blame (credit) depending on how you look at it.   I heard of Brian and WLF several years ago throughf a friend.   I was looking to do something custom and was striking out with the big name manufacturers.  WLF is always tinkering and is more of a cottage/custom operation.  Naturally that's where I ended up.  

Somewhere along this thread several participants PM'd me and we discussed at length the pro's and cons of several makers.   I too own a Kifaru, and have for many years.   They make a great product.  However, there are some things about their business model that are unsavory.  I will leave it at that.  And to boot, I am less than 100% satisfied with the product and design.   I know that's akin to insulting Black Widow.... With it comes many voices crying blasphemy.  

Regarding Brian showing up on this thread, I  mentioned to him the opportunity to crack into this market by doing some sound business with some Tradgangers.  I bragged about their loyalty and maturity in discourse.  Right about that time he appeared on the forum.   It was no conspiracy by Steve Chappell,  I can assure you.  

Also, somewhere along the way my baby Llamas got insulted and this thread turned funny.  I applaud Kevin for seeing it as good natured, and replying in kind.  

So.... I'm currently contracted with Brian to do an ultralight Wall tent/hybrid that will be a one of a kind on the market.   I am very excited to see it come to fruition.   I personally think that Tipi's are necessary for Alaska and other exposed landscapes.   However, in the elk woods, a wall tent is soooo nice.  With today's materials, I think I'm on it .   Time will tell.
Jeff

[Steve Chappell]

I just returned from a trip to Australia to see my daughter off to a study abroad stint there.  We spent 2 weeks traveling Australia and New Zealand together. My 20 yr old baby is growing up and I have to take every opportunity I can to spend quality time with her.  I am still readjusting to the MI time zone.  New Zealand is one incredably beautiful country and should I ever go through the major adjustment one has to go through to adjust to the significant time zone change, it will be to spend a lot more time in New Zealand and bow hunt there.  

Kevin, yes I did order the 8 man cuban tipi from Brian at WL&F. Sent him a deposit some time ago to order the cuban material and start the build.  I am going with a stright 8 man tipi with a 16 foot diameter.

I plan to use it in September on an AK float hunt for Moose and Brown Bear...but I agree with Montanawidower a wall tent cannot be beat for head room and comfort.  I have a 12X!4 custom built Montana Canvas in realite with a canvas roof and aluminum frame...it is a great set up but there is no backpacking that thing in to elk camp.  When you think of what a fabric like Cuban could do to the weight of a wall tent it is down right exciting.  Can you immagine a 12X14 wall tent coming in around 15 to 20 lbs?

Kevin...congrats on the Sawtooth...that is a neat design!  Based on your past, I know you will enjoy many great hunts with it.

I will keep those interested updated on the cuban tipi build and then how it performs.  I will get pics up too.  Hope to have it to use at Compton Ren in June.

[Kevin Dill]

Good to hear Steve. I hope you get lots of hunts and plenty of adventure from your tipi. I'll be watching for a report when you receive it.

My Sawtooth is sitting quietly in my office. Actually, I haven't had a single piece of it out of the bags yet with all the deep snow and -0 weather. I'm waiting on a warm dry day now.