carbon bareshafting ?

[sheepdogreno]

I was wondering if anyone could help me with my bareshafting on some carbon. I've got some 400 spine arrow dynamics 30in long 16g insert and 7.3gpp. I bareshafted these for my 58in 45# r/d long bow that I draw about 28.5in on. Brace at 7in. I know these are way to stiff for my bow however I was hoping with point weight I could make them work.

Bareshafting with 250g up front they were flying great. Fletched up they are hitting left and the arrow flight is awful. Can see the fletching kicking out to the right in flight. So playing with point weight down to 145g up front and they are shooting straight and right where I want them. I spent some time shooting 4 arrows (2 with 145g points, 2 with 250g) and the 145s grouped where I wanted and the 250g grouped left 6 inches. What gives?! 145g points are way off on Stu's calculator.

[njloco]

They are over spined, as you know. Did you try paper tuning after you installed your feathers ? I would guess that because of the lighter weight tip the arrow is absorbing less paradox and just gets moving upon release. I'm not familiar with that particular brand of carbon arrows.

[sheepdogreno]

I haven't tried paper tuning. That will be next on my lists of firsts. Bareshafting experience for me is minimal. I had some luck with some aluminum 1916s that are being fletched right now. But those were from the start more suited for my bow from a spine standpoint. I'm just scratching my head. They should be way over spined with a 145g tip but fly the best with them fletched and bareshafted way stiff with 145g

[JRY309]

Sometimes you just can't tune a heavy spined carbon to a lighter weight bow.I had bought some used carbons that were stiff so I thought could just add more weight upfront for a longbow.They showed stiffer the more weight I added.They were in effect bouncing off the riser instead of flexing around it.Carbons recover much faster then wood or aluminum they can give you a false reading?They shot better with the lighter weight point but still showing alittle stiff.I did tune the same spined carbons to that bow but started out full length and trimed and tuned from there.They might have worked if I was tuning them for a recurve cut past center.It was for a longbow cut off center.I find a longbow  alittle more critical on spine then a recurve.You may find that a .500 spine carbon may work better for a 45# bow.

[sheepdogreno]

This makes since..thanks

[BAK]

For whatever reason there seems to be a trend in todays scheme of things to refuse to shoot carbon shafts that are spined for the bow.

It's like a refusal to accept reality.  First off carbon arrows were developed for compounds, not recurves or long bows.

They are incredibly stiff for their weight, and require a very light shaft to really perform as they should out of a bow that induces paradox.

The vast majority of trad shooters would do well to be using 15/35 shafts, but most refuse to do so.  Those that do seldom have all the issues the rest fight.

[njloco]

I have taken 1535's and put 360gr up front, cut them down to 29", and they shoot perfect, thats a 600gr arrow. It also shoots very well down to 550gr.

Bak, when my friends saw that I shot 1535's out of most of my bows, they thought I was crazy, now most of them do also.

[damascusdave]

I remember reading some posts about difficulty getting consistent bareshaft results with Arrow Dynamics arrows, just one reason I have no interest in even trying them...welcome to wild and wonderful world of tuning carbon arrows...as you have already learned for a new shooter aluminum is the way to go...I also seem to recall you posting that you are pretty new to shooting with fingers...could be your form is a factor as well...bareshaft tuning requires really solid form, shot after shot, to tell you anything useful

DDave

[Rock 'N Bow]

I believe he is referring to the High Plains Hunter, a parallel shaft, as opposed to Traditional shafts which are tapered. From my own experience I would say they are still too stiff. Even with that much point weight, a .500 would work better.

[sheepdogreno]

For the record I'm not refusing to use a certain spine arrow. These 400s shoot great from a 50# recurve I have and I was hoping with some point weight I could make them work with my longbow as well. I guess I will just use the 1916 aluminums I got and leave these for the recurve.

Dave-ive only been shooting fingers "the right way" since August so your probably right. I did have consistent groups for each point weight so I dunno

[sheepdogreno]

Should there be a specific distance for bareshafting? I have been getting good results bareshaft and fletched at about 8-9 yds then poor results at 20. I will admit that my form is not perfect however I don't think the distance is due to my mistakes because the fletched shafts with 145g tips go right where I want and the 250g groups six in left at same distance. 20yd bareshaft with 250g matches the fletched 145g. I'm terribly confused. I'm near the point of if I shoot these arrows from my longbow just using the 145g points with no explanation as to why they work!

[BAK]

If your bow/shaft set up is tuned, distance is not a factor.  I've shot bare shafts out to 50 yards with no issues.  The biggest problem you might run into trying that however is consistent form.

[damascusdave]

This sounds all too familiar for someone that is really just getting started...the more you try to fix things the less they get fixed...what you really need is a mentor/coach who can watch what you are doing and help you sort out what is going on...my guess is you are wanting to hunt soon and you have put some arbitrary limit on when you need to be ready to do that...that is usually not as simple as you would wish it to be, the compound bowhunter mentality that is so common these days of just getting some equipment, shooting a bit, and then going hunting...pie plate sized groups at 20 yards may be good enough for hunting with tuned arrows (although I find that standard to offer way too much chance of hitting a game animal poorly)...they are not good enough for really good tuning...I think you need to be able to shoot 9 ring on a FITA target to tune well

DDave

[olddogrib]

Sheep,
Are you talking gpp or gpi? I'm not familiar with that shaft but I shoot 30" 500's that are well above 7.3 gpp. Generally as spine goes up (within make) so does total arrow weight. Or are you excluding tip weight? It would probably take as much weight as you mentioned to get them to fly, but as mentioned, .50's are abetter choice.

[sheepdogreno]

Sorry typo yes the AD shafts I have are 7.3gpi. 250g points puts them around 480g without nock and feather weight. So just over 10gpp. I also have noticed the GPI on these shafts is a lot less than other manufacturers in similar spine

[sheepdogreno]

Originally posted by damascusdave:
This sounds all too familiar for someone that is really just getting started...the more you try to fix things the less they get fixed...what you really need is a mentor/coach who can watch what you are doing and help you sort out what is going on...my guess is you are wanting to hunt soon and you have put some arbitrary limit on when you need to be ready to do that...that is usually not as simple as you would wish it to be, the compound bowhunter mentality that is so common these days of just getting some equipment, shooting a bit, and then going hunting...pie plate sized groups at 20 yards may be good enough for hunting with tuned arrows (although I find that standard to offer way too much chance of hitting a game animal poorly)...they are not good enough for really good tuning...I think you need to be able to shoot 9 ring on a FITA target to tune well

DDave

I wish I had others that shot trad archery around here to help me trust me. Would enjoy that very much. They are few and far between in my area. Not trying to rush into hunting either I've already completed my first deer season with a tradbow and killed a bigger deer than I've shot with a wheel bow or gun. This hunting experience is the reason why my deer season has been closed for some time now and I am still shooting targets and having a lot of fun doing it. There's nothing on my hunting plate for some time. Traditional archery has become my main hobby since I took it on full time over compound last year. I'm just looking for some guidance is all...

[the rifleman]

I agree with the posts that indicate that there are a lot of trad shooters out there trying to get carbons that are too stiff to shoot out of their bows.  I think often the problem begins when someone transitions from a compound expecting apples to be apples when they now have oranges.  Another contributor to the problem is often the "archery pro" at the local store that may or may not know compounds well but is often clueless about longbows, recurves, and yes although some deny its existence paradox and ultimately sells someone arrows that are too stiff.  I've found 1535s and 600s work well for me, but I do have a short draw length and am probably pulling around 44 pounds.  I have seen guys that shoot better than me that are using arrows too stiff for their bows---can only imagine how well they will shoot when they get correct arrows...  In my limited experience I would think that it would be better for a shooter to start with arrows that are too weak rather than too stiff---usually easier to correct as there seem to be arrows that are way too stiff to correct.  JMO

[chase perry]

So your bare shafts are flying great with 250 grains up front, then you fletch them up and everything goes down hill.  I think that your nocking point might be too low.  Move the nock up 3/16", or 1/4", and see what happens before you go and make a big investment in something new.  You will get a nock high reading on your bare shaft, but you don't hunt with a bare shaft.  If your form was the problem why would you get great results on a bare shaft when that is where form problems are most evident?  

Good luck, Chase

[Cyclic-Rivers]

What does the rest/strike plate on your shelf look like?  Does it have any excessive wear on it any where?

That could give a clue as to what your arrow is doing as its passing the bow.

From the spine and weight you indicated, I would imagine you have a  deep channel on the rest and a heavy mark on the strike plate.

If you are showing these marks,, you are shooting an arrow that's too stiff. Try going up in point weight more.

It sounds like you don't want to change the arrows too much since you already use them on another bow.

[Friend]

Shot execution consistency or lack there of, is a big factor in bare shaft tuning.

The bottom line is the relationship of the fletched shafts with field tips to the fletched shafts with BH's. Note: shot execution consistency is a factor also however may prove much more adequate for tuning.

If the field tipped and BH tipped arrows share the same mark from approx. 5 to 25 yards, you are golden...