Cold weather camping - tent

[AkDan]

read the billows tip.  I have to double what John is saying.  Keep your face out of your bag!!!  It's the worst thing you can do for staying dry and warm at nite.  You're breathing persperation directly into the bag.  As little as you think, you'll be soaked by the morning.   5 days at 25 below, the last nite I tried this in an Army 40 below bag.  Put my head in the bag and promptly froze my tush off.  That hunt ended after that nite.  We had no heater to warm up with other then the pickup truck and what little precious spare fuel we had.  

Another bad one is to be in cloths.  YOu can use these cloths at nite, however do not wear them in the day!  They are wet.  Again you dont think they're wet, they are.  You'll pay a dear price for it if you get in a bad kinda way.

The ground pad is a good one. The better the pad the warmer you'll be.  I also did something similiar on a yearly basis though not as intense as Larry's escaped at the survival school.   We had a nite in a bag with nothing more then our ta50, poncho bag etc.   Found out real quick a bed of dead rye grass really keeps you warm.  If this is not a luxury at hand, spruce bows, or even the big 3 or 4" thick yellow foam is a kick in the pants (and mighty comfortable at that) for staying warm in cold temps.  Keep your body OFF THE GROUND!  I usually pad the ground with extra cloths or the big heavy duty game bags if I have them at hand.  Even if using pillow case's for bags, I'll use them between my matt and the ground.  Works like a champ!

But I have to tell you, if you're serious about winter camping, a good bag is where it's at!  You cannot without a doubt beat a wiggys bag.  They aint cheap, but you'll never replace it!  North face is the most over rated bag, Wiggys bags are the most under rated temperature wise.  
Definatly some good tips on here.

[Labs4me]

KS_Stickbow

I have done quite a bit of winter camping and I live in Michigan where winter means WINTER. In addition to backbacking throughout much of north america (including AK), friends and I have welcomed in many New Year's days by camping out. In the Porcupine Mountains of Michigan Upper Penninsula, I have spend many wonderful evenings winter camping. If you want to experience solitude- try camping in the Porkies during December!!!

I've been following this thread since this morning. As with most things, there is no single best answer. It really boils down to what your intent is. If you intend on just being a "manly man" and toughing it out without spending a bunch of money, for a night or two virtually any combination of equipment COULD work. But more than likely, even if if you don't admit it out loud, you're going to have a tolerable experience at best. If you actually desire to ENJOY your winter camping experience, here's the way to do it.

First, make certain that you wear a wicking underlayer of clothing, including socks. Doesn't matter what type as long as it wick moisture away from your skin. Silk, Polypro, etc.,etc.

Second, purchase the absolute BEST goose down sleeping bag you can afford. Make sure that the down is of the high quality, high-loft variety. An outer shell constructed of gortex or some other proven water proof material is recommended. You will not find one of these bags at Wallmart, Mieijer, etc. Go to a speciatly backpacking shop and talk to an experienced camper/backpacker. These days, there are actually a number of synthetic fill fiber materials that are worth considering too. IF YOU INTEND TO SPEND ANY SERIOUS TIME CAMPING DURING THE WINTER MONTHS, YOUR SINGLE BEST INVESTMENT IS A QUALITY SLEEPING BAG (capitalized for emphasis).

In '89 I paid roughly $550 for a Marmot goose-down/gortex sleeping bag. I've used that bag on literally hundreds of occassions and it is just as effective at keeping me dry and warm today as it did 18 years ago. With bags, you get what you pay for. And a good bag is like a good bow- it is something you will appreciate for a lifetime.

Third, it is imperative that you buy a quality sleeping pad. For winter camping, make sure you purchase a FULL length, closed cell, self-inflating, water proof pad, like a Therma Rest. Purchase the extra thick model for winter use.

Fourth, always keep a wool ski-variety hat in your sleeping bag with you. You'll be amazed at how much warmer you'll be sleeping with a hat on.

Fifth, if you can swing it, go out and by a quality four-season low profile tent. For winter camping, you can't beat having a tent with and attached vestibule.

To recap: Wicking underlayer; QUALITY sleeping bag; full length, closed cell, extra thick, self-inflating sleeping pad; wool hat, and lastly, a quality four season tent.

If you'd like to hear a few more practical suggestions, shoot me a PM.

[Brian Krebs]

Boy I agree with the wool cap deal; totally forgot about that !! And using a cap allows you to not have to tuck yourself inside the sleeping bag- because if you breathe into the bag; you will end up with moisture; which can freeze and prevent the bag from breathing.
                                     
 I hope you can see the comments about the importance of a pad; it not only makes the night more comfortable; it keeps the cold from attacking you from below.

 And yes- do NOT dress up for sleeping! I don't wear socks; pajamas are ok; but wearing pants and a heavy shirt will not keep you warm - better off laying on your clothes than wearing them. If you notice in Huckleberries excellent advise- he mentions not heavy socks and sleeping clothes- but instead "  First, make certain that you wear a wicking underlayer of clothing, including socks. Doesn't matter what type as long as it wicks moisture away from your skin. Silk, Polypro, etc.,etc."  RIGHT ON.  
                   
 You can use a cheaper sleeping bag with a sleeping bag cover; my sleeping bag cover is 10 oz canvas; and I cannot stress how much I like it.
 I woke up once after a rain; and there was a pool of water on the sleeping bag cover.. and the rain outside had turned to snow. The bag cover is a purchase you will not regret.
         
 One thing NOT mentioned yet is tent stakes! The plastic ones can crack from hitting even in hot weather let alone cold; and the frozen ground can bend weak stakes. I buy spikes. 10 or 12 inch long and thick ones because they are least likely to bend or break; and you don't need that kind of thing happening while putting up ( or later taking down) a tent on a cold night. Try going to the hardware store for them; and the price will be right. Also- you can use two extra spikes together to pull out stakes when your ready to pull up stakes. With the stake ( spike) in the ground held with two spikes; and a hand on each side- you can pull them out!

Starkman- I am not familiar with the cabelas pad and cot; but a pad that keeps air and is quality should work. Like I said; I have used horse pads with great success; and even my hunting clothes on the cot and under the sleeping bag with success. Certainly a cot alone will not keep you warm! However- once you have slept on a cot with an adequate pad; you will be sold on the idea for sure!

[AkDan]

boy I forgot my cap too LOL!  If you're bald, GET ONE.  

I also if I have the room carry a fleece zip up blanket.  My pops carried a wool blanket and still does to this day.   We keep them inside the bag, sometimes outside the bag.  Makes a great pillow if ya dont need it and if it's too hot you can use it for a bag and sleep on your bag.  

Again if room allows.

[UKarcher]

I can't agree more with Huckleberry about the quality sleeping bag. I'm moving over to the states next month and have pared what I'm bringing with me down to two bags. But one thing I couldn't leave behind was my sleeping bag. I'm actually using it to wrap all my archery kit in. It's a British army arctic issue bag that I was given years ago and I can honestly say I have never had a cold night sleeping in it, even up mountains in Scotland in winter. But all the other advice goes with it, like a good pad and not dressing up to sleep. If I had to get out quick in the night it wouldn't be a pretty sight, cos all I wear is a pair of underpants and a woolly hat.
Graham

[coldpaddler]

It's amazing how much hard earned knowledge is packed into this Tradgang website!  In this one thread, a person can learn what it took me many years of trial and error (not to mention freezing my butt off) to learn.
A couple of little things I can add:  
Plan your camp site carefully.  Getting out of the prevailing winds can go a long way towards keeping warm.
Fleece pants, jacket, neck gator and a wool hat reserved for wearing only in the sleeping bag. (Keep them dry)
I make an insulated ground cover by taking foam sleeping pads; stitch them together w/ parachute cord and cut it to the shape of my tent floor.  This combined with my therma-rest sleeping pad in the tent keeps me protected from the frozen ground.
If possible, hang a tarp over the tent for rain/snow/wind protection.  It also allows you to open up the tent a bit to allow for ventilation.

-Dan

[zilla]

The biggest problem with tents in winter is that the snow load will collapse them.. People like the canvas tents because they are roomy and warm.  If you are car camping then weight aint a factor.  My choice here is a canvas wall tent.

When I winter camp I use a North Face VE 25 , and a -30 bag.  A sleeping pad is a must also, I use a therma rest.  But then the camping I do is off of sno-machines, sno-shoes, etc and I am looking for compact gear..

[ks_stickbow]

Ok so I have been looking around town at some used wall tents...most seem to be old army issue or army surplus stuff...the canvas seems very heavy duty, but they all seem to have a musty smell to them....even non military surplus ones from guys who say they have used and taken care of them....is that smell inherant to canvas wall tents and is it normal or should I pass...some have looked good as far size, and conditiona (except for the musty smell) and one even comes with a barrel stove.


what do ya'll think?

[tim roberts]

I haven't read all four pages so if this was brought up, I apoligize for repeating it.
A few years back I found a small very light weight liner called a Silky Sack.  It is pure silk and adds about 20-30 degrees to your sleeping bag rating.  Rolls up in a ball about the size of my fist.

[Roughcountry]

Jeff
One tent design that I've been looking hard at is called a campfire tent by the late canoe great Bill Mason. Very versitile design that could be used for cold weather as well as summer and fall.
Would not be one for going in on your back.
There are drawings and plans in the Mason book Song of The Paddle for building your own. By my figures it would cost around 150.00 to build using the best treated Sunforger canvas. It can be used with or without a stove and has 6 ft of head room.

About the same cost as using the same material to build a Cowboy Range Tipi, but looks to be a little more airy in warm weather.

[AkDan]

Tim, where di dyou find this?  I'd be interested in it for sure.  Might do a dec 1 caribou hunt...dec 1 in alaska is one cold ........  

[Killdeer]

A four season tent is made to withstand the weight of snow on it. I have been using an Alaskan Guide from Cabelas for the last five-or-so seasons, and like it very much. I use a Mr.Buddy heater, which is safe for indoor use. I also will burn a propane lantern, which provides a lot of heat.

An air mattress keeps me off the ground and puts a layer of insulation under me. I use good sleeping bags that I bought twenty years ago, and a couple of sheepskins inside the bags for when it gets really cold. I camp in temps from sixty Farenheit to fifteen below zero, and while I do notice that it has gotten a might hard and frosty out there, I am still right comfortable at it.

Killdeer

[Tom Leemans]

Tarp over a light tent traps heat. Get yourself off the ground when you sleep. Nothing sucks the heat out of you like cold ground. I don't care how good your bag is. Wool wool wool!!! I like to line my bag with a wool blanket for extreme weather and wear some wool socks/clothes.

[John Nail]

I don't own one, but it would be hard to imagine a better tent in winter than a Tipi

[Badlands]

Great thread so far.
I'll echo to "get a good bag" suggestion and add one more tip.
Add any additional layers "inside" your bag, not on top of it.  
A good quality goose down bag is as good as it is because it provides lots of loft. Loft = insulation.  The other biggest advantage of down for backpackers is its copressability.  
A down bag can be compressed into a much smaller space than an similarly rated synthetic bag.
The bad part is that is that anything on top of the bag, like blanket, will compress the bag quite a bit and since the blanket probably doesn't have the same insulation value that the amount of down that it displaces, you'll acctualy be going backwards.
If you want to add insulation value to your bag, a silk or fleese bag liner is the way to go.

I agree with the "don't breath into the bag" suggestioon as well as the stocking cap one, but I sure wish someone could give me a tip on how to keep my nose warm when its not in the bag.

[Fish'n River]

I have a "Campfire" tent from Frost River, it's a great tent and not to heavy as far as canvas goes.
 I use it year round.

[Roughcountry]

Fish'n
What size is your tent and does it have the panels for the top flap? If so do you like them?

I'm getting ready to order canvas for my winter project.

[Numitokayo]

The best cold winter tents I've seen are the " Arctic Oven " tents.  They are used in and around Yellowknife and are very warm.  They are made in Alaska if I remember right too.  The web site is alaskatent.com

DQ

[Dave Bulla]

Hey Jeff, hows things?

I noticed that you asked a couple times about canvas vs nylon and floors vs no floors.  It's been my experience that a lot of canvas tents don't have floors, mostly all nylon ones do.  

Nylon tents are more air tight but I don't just mean the fabric itself, I mean that compared to a canvas wall tent with no floor and a ridgepole, a nylon tent is about like sleeping in a plastic bag.  The design makes the difference.  A floorless canvas tent breathes through the canvas itself, air comes in under the edges a little If you don't have the sod cloth weighted down and if you ever noticed, there is a pretty good sized hole in each end of a wall tent where the ridgepole sticks out that realy ventilates nicely.  I think that has a lot to do with the tendency of people to use heaters in canvas tents but not use them much in nylon tents.  It just feels safer in a canvas tent and besides, a stove pipe jack is almost a standard feature on a canvas wall tent too.  

Like Huntit said, just your breath codensation making an unbroken layer of ice inside a nylon tent can reduce ventilation enough to cause asphyxiation.  

If you noticed in the pics, lots of the guys use nylon tarps, leantos of simple design that are open on one or both ends and sometimes all down one side.  Just something to keep the dew, rain or snow off you and your gear and a fire right at the entrance provides a bit of warmth.  They just scare me a bit to have a fire making sparks next to a nylon anything.  Especially a good quality 300 to 500 dollar sleeping bag

As for floors, I love a tent with no floor especially in the winter.  If ya think about it, there isn't much mud when winter camping.... no skeeters either.  Summer is a different story though.  It's wonderful to not have to take your boots off and on to go in and out of a floorless tent.  My buddy had a big wall tent with 5 foot walls that was something like 15X19 and we could set it up, put a canvas tarp on the ground in the back half for a floor in the sleeping area and set the cots up on it.  Then in the front half we'd leave it bare, toss out a couple camp chairs and set up the stove and kitchen area.  We'd be able to go in and out with our boots on, pop in to warm up and have a hot lunch or whatever and at night set around in comfort by the stove.  We avoided walking on the ground tarp half of the tent with our boots and it was nice and clean when ya hit the sack or got up in the morning.

It would be pretty cold in the morning if the fire went out but just lighting a lantern and waiting about ten minutes made a huge difference.  By the time the bacon and coffee were going over coleman stoves we were shedding layers to stay comfortable.

This was definitely a "drive to where you will camp" type of tent.  I'd like to get something smaller say 10X12 or so that was a LITTLE more portable for my own use.

[Roughcountry]

Here's a picture of my 10 by 12 with the six ft porch on. This tent is my oldest and I've used it for 18 years. Being cheap I made the frame from bent up 2" irrigation pipe. The corner brackets are made from square steel tubing and you can cut lodgepole and square the ends for pack trips deep into the hills. No need to carry poles that way, a rope & comealong between a couple trees works ok also.

I built the porch for summer/fall camping to get the kitchen out of the tent. The canvas is three peices so you can elect to use only one wall or none. The roof canvas also doubles as a roof between both my tents set up facing each other. I use one for sleeping and one for a kitchen on extended trips in bad weather.

This tent is my warmest, having a bigger stove and 12 oz. canvas. If I added all the years of use this tent has had, it has been set up right at 4 years. It should go that much more with the same care.

Charlie Lamb and Curtis Keller are pretty fond of this tent in snowy weather  :D